The posts about exJWs turning atheist

by AmazingProgeny 5 Replies latest jw friends

  • AmazingProgeny
    AmazingProgeny

    They got me thinking about something written by someone I know from a different website. She is a really neat person and I enjoy reading her posts. She has never been a JW. She is a scientist and a Christian. She wrote about the relationship between faith and science. I don't know how much this subject has been discussed before, but I thought some of you might enjoy it.

    I am often torn two ways, by both my sisters-in-Christ and by my working brothers in my professional, by comments that are discounting to whichever portion of my philosophical life that person doesn't share. I believe it is possible to be both rigourously scientific, and devoutly faithful, without any internal conflict. As a scientist -- applied, at least -- myself, I offer the following essay for consideration:
    A respected scientist recently condemned Christianity as "essentially irrational". I frequently hear the assertion that "science has disproved Christianity". On the other hand I hear about "the faithless arrogance of scientists" or that science teachers, in teaching something that is "just a theory", are engaged in an assault against Christianity. Caught in the middle are Christian scientists (as opposed to Christian Scientists <g>) who occasionally claim that in fact science supports or even proves the claims of Christianity.
    I contend that all three of these perspectives betray a basic misunderstanding of the nature of faith, science, and the relationship between them.
    Yes, faith is irrational. So are oranges, "Die Fledermaus", and pi. "Irrational" is not an inherently negative term; it simply refers to something that cannot be systematicly reduced to a root concept or idea. Why would we be offended at the claim that our faith cannot be reduced? The great modern theologians like Emmanuel Kant recognised this in the concept of "the leap of faith"; we make such leaps on a regular basis. Is play rational? Is love rational? No. But they are none-the-less real.
    Why, for that matter, would someone expect faith to follow the rules of "rationality" that are appropriate to an entirely different domain of hman experience, to whit, science? For the most part, that notion begins with the theologian/mathematician Rene Descartes. Descartes, of "I think, therefor I am" fame, nearly single-handedly transformed the philosophy of the western world. His concept of the number-line demonstrated that arithmetic clearly has no limits at either positive or negative infinity. Although arithmetic has no intrinsic reality -- it is only a self-consistent analytical system -- it is used in daily experience to help us understand *reality*. If arithmetic demonstrates that no "first cause" is necessary, then how can we claim that *reality's* need for a "first cause" proves the existence of God?
    By combining two or three number-lines, Descartes created "Cartesian planes" and "Cartesian spaces" in which arithmetic could be used to study shapes and solids. At a simplistic level, this suggested another "proof" for the existence of God: that as an (infinite) plane is required to contain an (infinite) line, and a space is required to contain a plane, so eventually one must come to a "first context" which sustains all subordinate contexts. Some Christian theologians adopted this concept of the "first context" to replace the "first cause" argument, but no great mathematical insight is required to see that they are manifestations of the same idea, and subject to the same fallacy. A more important effect of this new mathematics was that it broke forever the previously-impervious barrier between algebraic reasoning and Euclidean reasoning. If that impervious barrier could be broken, why not the barrier between philosophy and science? Could not science and mathematics be used to describe *everything*? Hence the Age of Reason was born, with Rene Descartes as its father. Christian apologists, few of whom understood the rational of their aruguments with anything approaching Descarte's acuity, began explaining to the world how science "proved" Christianity.
    Descartes himself did not buy in to the fallacies of the Age of Reason. "Cogito, ergo sum" (I think, therefor I am) is *not* a rational argument. It does not "prove" the existance of God, nor does it intend to. Yet, it is essentially "scientific". Because SCIENCE IS NOT ABOUT PROOF! Science is not about "facts". Science is a method!!!
    The scientific method is as follows: the scientist makes careful, detailed *observations*. "Observations" are the only part of science that has an inarguable claim to be "fact". A fact is something like "an apple, held at a distance above the ground and then released, accellerates toward the ground". The scientist then imagines a theory that explains the observation: "an invisible attractive force acts between two masses", and may have to create certain definitions as part of the theory: "that force being called gravity". The scientist then uses his theory to predict some *different* behaviour than has previously been observed, and sets up certain conditions in which that behaviour *can* be observed. An experiment is never a "failure", whether the predicted behaviour is observed or not, as long as it adds to the body of "observations" from which new theories can be imagined. In fact, the experiments that non-scientists consider "failures" are the most exciting, because the scientist must then refine his theory, or create a new one, that adequately explains *all* the observations. The experiments must also be repeatable by different scientists, so that the observations are utterly objective. Scientific theories are continually being refined, as we add to humanities experience. A shallow or simplistic understanding of a theory can usually be shown to have multiple flaws; but the advanced scientific statement of the theory is always considerably more robust.
    We should all be concerned if our science teachers are teaching theory as fact. Not because theories are suspect -- the atomic theory of matter, the theory of gravity, magnetic field theory, and so on are all "just" theories -- but because teaching "fact" instead of "method" presupposes that answers are more important than questions. And when we stop questioning, science stops. Even -- or perhaps especially -- when a theory challenges the teachings of our religion, our children benefit from examining both the observations that the theory explains, and the testing that the theory has undergone. A theory may be the simplest explaination of all available observations, and still be wrong.
    Should the same method be applied to our faith? Should we build theories based on doctrine or dogma, and then apply them to rigorous testing to set faith up as a competitor to Science? I say, with Descartes, a hearty "No". Science is utterly objective; faith occurs inside our hearts, the gift of grace, utterly subjective. Science and faith are as different as "taste" and "sleep" -- neither related, nor complementary, nor mutually exclusive. To hold one up in condemnation of the other is specious.
    I experience Jesus in an utterly personal way. That is not Science. It is the essence of Faith.

    I look forward to hearing what you have to say about it.

    AmazingProgeny

  • LDH
    LDH

    AP

    As you know, being brought us JW with years of inculcation NOT to trust science or scientists has had a major impact in my life.

    For about the last 8 years I have been working at a way to reconcile the two.

    This started when my daughter (now 11, then 3 and fascinated with dinosaurs) wondered where they all went? I did NOT share with her any of the WBTS articles but instead bought her some books which we read together.

    Maybe that was the beginning of the end for me.

    Also, like many JW youth in my area, I had some experience in this matter. 10th grade Science subject matter is Biology. My parents (along with all other JW youth in our hall) did not allow me to take this course.

    Conflict between Jehovah and Science, they said.

    Thanks for your post.
    Lisa

  • Amazing
    Amazing

    Hi AP: Thanks for this post. One thing to consider here is that there is an ongoing battle between young earth creationists, fundamentalists, and some who are very well versed in the theory and laws of evolutionary science. Walk carefully my daughter, lest you be caught in the middle of this war and get nuked.

    I have taken a moderate position of accepting that evolution is fact, mainly because too many scientific facts support it, and more evidence is building in its favor all the time, yet, I hold that God commenced the process.

    But, that said, I am also caught in the mix of all kinds of difficult questions about God's purpose, wisdom, love, and relationship with the human race. Just so you know.

    I think one who best presents evolution and healthy scientific debate on this topic, without nuking people or personally attacking them, is Alan F. Jan H is okay too.

    Thanks again. - Dad

  • ros
  • Quester
    Quester

    Hello AP.

    I really liked your post. Thanks for sharing it.

    The point about just because something is irrational
    does that mean it's not real, ie play, love, etc., reminded
    me of something Hans Kung wrote (well-known Catholic
    German theologian). He said:

    "The proof of God is no more logically stringent than is love."

    I don't think that is quite the same as saying love is
    irrational, but a similar point perhaps.

    Your post also mentioned leap of faith and experiencing
    Jesus in a personal way...

    After spending the last 9 months researching Biblical
    criticism and having everything I've ever believed in
    torn down, I am feeling pretty ignorant about God and
    the Bible. I have come to that "edge" where I've asked
    myself, "Why do I still believe in God?"
    And it boils down to personal experiences and faith.

    Logical? Rational? Scientific? Emotional? Credulity?
    No. I don't know how to label it or define it.
    It's a knowing through experiences and there are no words
    to adequately describe it.

    I would say that faith denotes trust and believing that there is
    something to all of this--enough to take the first step and then
    another, etc. And in the process of taking these steps, we learn,
    we make adjustments, and our faith is affirmed with personal
    experiences.

    I think a lot of decisions in life are like that--a calculated risk
    based on our understanding of the information at the time.

    No guarantees.
    There's always that chance I could be wrong.
    I was soooo wrong about the jw religion.
    I can understand why people would be hesitant to trust
    and leap again.

    I read your intro, and noticed that you mentioned attending the
    United Methodist church. It seems that most xjw's are totally
    turned off by organized religion, and I was also--until recently.
    I've been out of the org for about 6 years now. I'm not exactly
    sure why I've been checking out the different religions in my area.
    I don't really want to join anything. I think what I am looking for
    is association with like-minded Christians. I would be interested
    in hearing more about your experiences with organized religion
    since leaving the jw religion. Did you check out different religions?
    How/why did you choose United Methodist and do your beliefs
    differ or do you agree with the doctrines?

    Whatever you feel comfortable sharing.
    Thanks, Quester

  • AmazingProgeny
    AmazingProgeny

    Quester, When I first left the JWs I wanted nothing to do with any religion. I just wanted to live my life with my faith untouched by other religions.

    A couple of years later I did attend a Baptist church that my parents had started to attend. I found it so vastly different from the JWs that it took a while to adjust. The pastor, at that time, was very moderate and accepted that people would not agree 100% with the church. It was a good experience b/c it taught me that other Christians have just as much faith and spend just as much time involved in church activities as the JWs.

    My husband and I moved away and found another Baptist church. For a short time it fit where I was in my faith. I was still fairly conservative in my beliefs. At the same time I found a website that had a message board for Christian Parents. Through it, I met a lot of different types of Christians. Some were ultra conservative, some moderate, and some very liberal. I learned a lot about the Bible, other faiths and so much more. Then a Religion Debate board was started and I began to learn about people of nonChristian faiths and atheists. I then began to really examine my own beliefs and to change some of them.

    So, I outgrew the Baptist church I had been attending. I then decided I wanted to find a different church with more liberal views. I didn't really know where to start. I knew of a few that I didn't want to attend. I saw some newspaper ads for the local United Methodist Churches (UMC) and I was intrigued, but never did anything.

    Along came a TV ad and it attracted my attention b/c it said that they were welcome and open to all people. I looked in the phone book and found the one closest to me. I checked out their website and read some stuff the pastor had written. Then I was ready to attend.

    What I like about this church is that it fit the requirements I had. It is small and very welcoming towards new people. My kids love it and are loved in return. They are active in the community. The pastor is not full of herself. They don't care if my views on things are a bit different. I don't have to agree with everything they believe in order to be a member.

    I'm not sure about membership yet. I will need to attend longer before I make a final decision. I still, in a small way, distrust organized religions. I'm taking my time and allowing myself the chance to fully examine everything around me in order to make the right decision.

    I hope that answers your questions. Let me know if you have more.

    AmazingProgeny

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