what do you make of these scriptuires... (re: elijah's mantle)

by dh 6 Replies latest watchtower bible

• 

  dh

  as a child this was one of the first passages in the bible that made me question god, and one of the first that made me think the yhwh described in the the bible was not dissimilar to us in many ways, and clearly a being that like us, used machinery and technology to get things done...

  when i think of the mindset that wrote these scriptures, i can't help but liken it to the way native american indians would describe a locomotive train as an 'Iron Horse' though clearly it is not an iron horse, it's a case of using the words you know to describe a thing you do not understand.

  if you believe the bible, or if you think it is an accurate teller of history... what do you think this biblical passage is descibing?

  2 Kings 2
  1 Now when the LORD was about to take Eli'jah up to heaven by a whirlwind, Eli'jah and Eli'sha were on their way from Gilgal.

  11 And as they still went on and talked, behold, a chariot of fire and horses of fire separated the two of them. And Eli'jah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

  -- (I believe the historian josephus also documented further information on these events, more detailed than these scriptures, but i'm not sure of the details)

  i've pasted the whole passage is here for context:

  1 Now when the LORD was about to take Eli'jah up to heaven by a whirlwind, Eli'jah and Eli'sha were on their way from Gilgal. 2 And Eli'jah said to Eli'sha, "Tarry here, I pray you; for the LORD has sent me as far as Bethel." But Eli'sha said, "As the LORD lives, and as you yourself live, I will not leave you." So they went down to Bethel. 3 And the sons of the prophets who were in Bethel came out to Eli'sha, and said to him, "Do you know that today the LORD will take away your master from over you?" And he said, "Yes, I know it; hold your peace." 4 Eli'jah said to him, "Eli'sha, tarry here, I pray you; for the LORD has sent me to Jericho." But he said, "As the LORD lives, and as you yourself live, I will not leave you." So they came to Jericho. 5 The sons of the prophets who were at Jericho drew near to Eli'sha, and said to him, "Do you know that today the LORD will take away your master from over you?" And he answered, "Yes, I know it; hold your peace." 6 Then Eli'jah said to him, "Tarry here, I pray you; for the LORD has sent me to the Jordan." But he said, "As the LORD lives, and as you yourself live, I will not leave you." So the two of them went on. 7 Fifty men of the sons of the prophets also went, and stood at some distance from them, as they both were standing by the Jordan. 8 Then Eli'jah took his mantle, and rolled it up, and struck the water, and the water was parted to the one side and to the other, till the two of them could go over on dry ground. 9 When they had crossed, Eli'jah said to Eli'sha, "Ask what I shall do for you, before I am taken from you." And Eli'sha said, "I pray you, let me inherit a double share of your spirit." 10 And he said, "You have asked a hard thing; yet, if you see me as I am being taken from you, it shall be so for you; but if you do not see me, it shall not be so." 11 And as they still went on and talked, behold, a chariot of fire and horses of fire separated the two of them. And Eli'jah went up by a whirlwind into heaven. 12 And Eli'sha saw it and he cried, "My father, my father! the chariots of Israel and its horsemen!" And he saw him no more. Then he took hold of his own clothes and rent them in two pieces. 13 And he took up the mantle of Eli'jah that had fallen from him, and went back and stood on the bank of the Jordan. 14 Then he took the mantle of Eli'jah that had fallen from him, and struck the water, saying, "Where is the LORD, the God of Eli'jah?" And when he had struck the water, the water was parted to the one side and to the other; and Eli'sha went over. 15 Now when the sons of the prophets who were at Jericho saw him over against them, they said, "The spirit of Eli'jah rests on Eli'sha." And they came to meet him, and bowed to the ground before him. 16 And they said to him, "Behold now, there are with your servants fifty strong men; pray, let them go, and seek your master; it may be that the Spirit of the LORD has caught him up and cast him upon some mountain or into some valley." And he said, "You shall not send." 17 But when they urged him till he was ashamed, he said, "Send." They sent therefore fifty men; and for three days they sought him but did not find him. 18 And they came back to him, while he tarried at Jericho, and he said to them, "Did I not say to you, Do not go?" 19 Now the men of the city said to Eli'sha, "Behold, the situation of this city is pleasant, as my lord sees; but the water is bad, and the land is unfruitful." 20 He said, "Bring me a new bowl, and put salt in it." So they brought it to him. 21 Then he went to the spring of water and threw salt in it, and said, "Thus says the LORD, I have made this water wholesome; henceforth neither death nor miscarriage shall come from it." 22 So the water has been wholesome to this day, according to the word which Eli'sha spoke. 23 He went up from there to Bethel; and while he was going up on the way, some small boys came out of the city and jeered at him, saying, "Go up, you baldhead! Go up, you baldhead!" 24 And he turned around, and when he saw them, he cursed them in the name of the LORD. And two she-bears came out of the woods and tore forty-two of the boys. 25 From there he went on to Mount Carmel, and thence he returned to Sama'ria.
• 

  dh

  sorry, the josephus account was of another incident much later...

  taken from http://askelm.com/prophecy/p921201.htm

  On the twenty-first of the month Artemisium [the last day of the 2nd Passover season In A.D.661, there appeared a miraculous phenomenon, passing belief. Indeed, what I am about to relate would, I imagine, have been deemed a fable, were it not for the narratives of eyewitnesses and for the subsequent calamities which deserved to be so signalized. For before sunset throughout all parts of the county [everywhere throughout Judea] chariots were seen in the air and armed battalions hurtling through the clouds and encompassing the cities" (War,VI.5.3 or Loeb VI.298, emphasis mine).

  This is the very thing that Christ Jesus said to watch for. And then (about two weeks later) Josephus tells us:

  Moreover, at the feast which is called Pentecost, the priests on entering the inner court of the temple by night, as their custom was in the discharge of their ministrations, reported that they were conscious, first of a commotion and a din, and after that of a voice as of a host, We are departing hence? (War, VI.209,300).

  With these two signs what did the Christians in Jerusalem and Judea do? Eusebius tells us that this is the time they began to leave the region because of the command of Christ and went to a city called Pella on the east side of the Jordan River (Ecclesiastical History, III.5). They and the apostles obtained safety from the holocaust that soon enflamed Jerusalem and Judaea.

  These chariots and armed forces seen in the skies all over Judaea and encompassing the cities of the Jews was similar to times recorded in the early history of Israel. Angelic powers (in this case, good angels) accompanied the armies of Israel when it was the normal period (in ancient Times) for hostilities to occur. The Bible says: ?And it came to pass, after the year had expired., at the time angels go forth to battle, that David sent Joab, and his servants with him, and all Israel; and they destroyed the children of Ammon" (II Samuel 11:1). The King James translators (and most modern ones) read the Hebrew as "kings," not "angels." But there is no reason whatever for reading the text as ?kings.? The verse was intended to show that angelic powers were there to aid Israel in their battles when they went to war.

  A further reference (which even corroborates angelic connections with wars or the preparations for wars on earth) is 11 Samuel 5:23,24 God said to David that when he heard "the sound of a going [forth] in the tops of the mulberry trees, then you (David] shall bestir yourself [to war],? This swishing sound in the top. of the trees of a turbulent waving action of the wind was recognized by David as caused by the Lord and his angelic hosts going to battle with David (see also Genesis 32:1.3 and II Kings 6:17 about angels accompanying God). But in A.D.66, instead of helping Israel win the war with the Romans that the people of Judaea were about to start, the angelic hosts were seen in the clouds in chariots and as armed soldiers encompassing the cities of Judaea and enclosing them on all sides for capitulation. This is precisely what Christ Jesus said to watch for in his Olivet prophecy.

  Not only that, Josephus said that a week before the Passover in A.D.66 an amazing thing happened that the authorities in Jerusalem saw. ?At the ninth hour of the night (3 A.M. ? the darkest part of the night], so brilliant a light shone round the altar and the sanctuary that it seemed to be broad daylight; and this continued for half an hour" (War, VI.290). A similar thing happened in the time of Solomon when the Temple was first dedicated and God entered the Sanctuary for the first time (II Chronicles 7:1-3).

  But in early A.D.66, this manifestation occurring a week before Passover culminated in the statement that God was leaving the Sanctuary given at the feast of Pentecost about eight weeks later (War, VI.299,300).
• 

  peacefulpete

  Good observation. In Caanan, like most of the ancient world, the gods were understood as being in many respects pawns of the great drama of life just like humans. Humans were seen as having been made of the same stuff as the gods but having been shortchanged by some stroke of bad luck. The real distinctions were of degree rather than nature. The gods were more powerful etc and immortal but essentially like us in having needs and limitations. In many instances they were described as needing vehicles of transportation. Yhwh as well as Baal are said to ride upon clouds, El and yhwh were riders upon winged bulls(cherubim), any number of solar deities used chariots of fire to ride across the skies. (sun)
  

  In the particular story about Elijah, his being described as "hairy" (2 kings 1:8) and the firey chariot that ascends to heaven across the sky are solar deity references poorly disguised by later editors.
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  robhic

  I, too, wondered about the "technology" related in biblical passages. Why would chariots fly when airplanes were going to be invented and make the flying chariot obsolete? Seems an all-knowing deity "inspiring" the scriptures would have known the future, would he not? I wonder why all the "inspiration" focuses on archaic, frame-of-reference ideas and things from thousands of years ago?

  And all the flying horses and swords and such would be rendered powerless by a few well-aimed SAM missles or even rocket propelled grenades launched by some folks on the ground. I think I'll take my chances if and when armageddon takes place. I really think gun beats knife (or even sword) in reality. A couple of well-armed Marines could change the course of history as far as the end of the world in revelations covers it. And a flying horse? I don't think so...

  Geez, could the bible be wrong?

  Robert
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  zen nudist

  in a book called the origin of consciousness, Julian Jaynes chalks up the gods to projections of inner voices and hallucinations which existed as the norm in the mentality of emerging human consciousness....

  but he makes some startling statements which seem rather to confirm alien entities...

  he says prior to some point, there are images of humans bowing to and receiving instruction from very large eyed "gods" which had eyes about 3x normal.... and after this point, the kings bowed to empty throne chairs and came up with divination to find the will of the gods because their voices had ceased....

  this seems to mesh well with a lot of UFO stories.
• 

  dh

  thanks for the replies! for me this is a very interesting subject, i agree that it could be to do with hallucinations, but i do not think so, not considering the number of references to similar things, seperated by large time frames, and the fact that it is documented by a historian like josephus, who is both recognised and respected.

  i don't think the reference to a fiery chariot & fiery horses is a literal reference to things that look physically like those things, the same as the iron horse, doesn't look like a horse, to me if you break it down to the fundamentals, you have a vehicle that is powered by something with flames, and it creates a whirlwind when it takes off, blowing trees etc... i don't understand how a lot of people who totally believe the bible can pass over these references without giving them a second thought.

  re: armageddon, i don't really belive that is coming in the jw sense, or any religions sense, but i do think that whoever had those chariots back then is up to something and will surely have some highly developed technology by now, maybe they are getting ready to kick us into touch.

  -

  it's not only these verses that bother me, it's the whole way it is through the whole old testement, the way natural events are often attributed to god, when in fact many of these we (humans) could ourselves today forecast, like a flood, hail the same as we can even create plagues, and bad ones at that, or we could take credit for natural ones if we could see them coming, i'd dare say we could coax a volcano into erupting and spewing fire & sulphar, or create our own, or even turn 'water into wine' or something like wine, if we put our minds to it, and if today we were zapped into some undeveloped region of the world and we predicted a storm coming with satelites, and it came, i'll bet the people would be impressed... it's weird, but to me god/s always appeared to leave a trail about its nature, things that seemed to clearly spell things out, but the church for some reason seems to have everyone convinced that god is a spook in the sky that's invisible and almighty and holier etc, it just doesn't wash.
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  zen nudist

  you might be interested in a book called THE GODS OF EDEN

  the author traces back secret societies to "the gods" and comes to the conclusion that aliens have been tampering with humanity

  to keep us imprisoned mentally and or spiritually.