Will This REALLY Remove Foolishness?

by Englishman 9 Replies latest jw friends

  • Englishman
    Englishman

    When my parents entered the world of the witnesses, I was aged 8 years old.

    Dubbism did not sit easily on my young shoulders, and, try as he might, my Dad struggled vainly to inculcate the “New Personality” into his wayward, eldest son. Eventually, the strong diet of guilt and fear made inroads into my head, but, fortunately for me, it never reached my heart. I was left with a personality that, instead of having absorbed the JW teachings had instead, become sort of “striped”.

    The result was a boisterous child who liked nothing better to cheek those in authority. I’m still like that!

    One of the solutions mooted to my Dad via the elders was the scripture in Proverbs – can’t remember which one – which stated that: “Foolishness is bound up in the heart of a boy, the rod of correction is what will remove it far from him”.

    Well, my Dad was a kindly soul, who, while not averse to giving me a light cuff around the side of my head occasionally, could not go through the commanded ritual of spanking my buttocks with a rod – in this case a nylon fish spatula – whatever Mr. Wiseguy in Proverbs commanded.

    However, I always knew when my Dad was not kidding, and despite my lack of corporal punishment would back right off when I realised I was pushing too hard. You see, I respected him.

    Similarly, when I was at school, corporal punishment was very much in vogue. I was caned by 9 different teachers during my school years, usually for cheek, always 2 or 4 strokes on the palms of both hands. Despite the pain, I was not unduly deterred from answering back and continued to do so at most opportunities. To me a shouting swearing teacher besides himself with rage was not worthy of respect.

    One teacher who never ever caned his pupils was Harry Hawks, our maths teacher. A barely audible tiny man, Harry had enormous presence, and it was he who recognised that I had problems with maths and quietly set about teaching me the fractions and decimals that I could not understand even at age 14.

    He soon had me into trigonometry and logarithms, eventually I gained respectable passes in examinations in these subjects. Thank you, Harry Hawks!

    Of course, when we had children of our own, my wife and I differed as to whether it was OK to smack children. Although now banned in schools, many parents feel that it is right and proper to spank children for wrongdoing, and that withholding this punishment makes for a potential social deviant.

    My own feelings are that while an extremely rare light cuff may be just about OK, (my wife says even that is a no-no) the grim, formal “Rod of correction” promulgated in the Bible is hopelessly inappropriate nowadays. I understand that in some countries it is a criminal offence to hit one’s children.

    So, should parents be able to hit their kids if they want to? Is the state correct if it forbids this? Is the Bible right when it commands fathers to use the rod on their children?

    Englishman.

    ..... fanaticism masquerading beneath a cloak of reasoned logic.

  • bigboi
    bigboi

    Hey Englishman,

    Good topic. I always enjoy your posts.

    As to your questions:

    So, should parents be able to hit their kids if they want to?

    I think they should. I don't think it should be left up to governments to determine how parents discipline their children. I think spanking should be used sparingly and with much discretion. I think coupled with other forms of discipline it can help ppl raise good children.

    Is the state correct if it forbids this?

    No it isn't. I say this because I believe too many parents are losing authority in their homes. Many children abuse being able to call the police on their parents. They also use laws like this as an excuse to run away. I'm not saying that abuse doesn't happen. But we can't be so naive to say that all spanking is abusive, just as we can't say that some spanking doesn't constitute abuse.

    Is the Bible right when it commands fathers to use the rod on their children?

    I would say yes. Although I feel I must say that I don't feel that the bible is being at all dogmatic about spanking. So I don't feel that I have to spank my kids or they won't come up right. I think in some situations spanking may be appropiate. Quite frankly it depends on the children and their personalities. The parent should know their children and figure out which kind of discipline is right for them as individuals.

    ONE....

    Bigboi

    "it ain't what ya do. it's how you do it" quote from the song "True Honeybunz" by Bahamadia

  • slipnslidemaster
    slipnslidemaster
    The result was a boisterous child who liked nothing better to cheek those in authority. I’m still like that!

    However, I always knew when my Dad was not kidding, and despite my lack of corporal punishment would back right off when I realised I was pushing too hard. You see, I respected him.

    Ditto on both.

    Slipnslidemaster: "Men have become the tools of their tools."
    - Henry David Thoreau

  • Latte
    Latte

    Good question Englishman!

    I am always pondering this one myself..... I was even more so when I was attending. There is a similar thread to this under the parenting section, regarding peoples feelings about whether children should be smacked at the KH (spanked for the Americans )

    Looking forward to everyones replies on this one.

    Latte

  • Moxy
    Moxy

    we hear often in talks and publications about Dr. Spock's famous 'apology' for raising a generation of deliquents. the interpretaion invariably being that even the worldy experts have recanted their view that corporeal punishment is wrong. i believe i remember that this quotation is at least greatly over-simplified or even badly misconstrued. could someone please clarify?

    mox

  • dedalus
    dedalus

    Excellent post, Englishman.

    Hit my kid? NO.

    My thoughts on this run along these lines: When parents hit their children, it means they have given themselves permission to do so -- they have accept the power, the right, to hit others. When anyone grants themselves that power, no matter how noble the cause, it's only a matter of time before the power is abused. You lose your temper, and *smack* -- perhaps without meaning to, your kid is out on the floor.

    My father endlessly recited the mantra "foolishness is tied up in the heart of a boy, blah blah blah," but he usually smacked me around, not out of discipline, but out of a certain frustration and laziness. He didn't have the patience or energy or whatever to talk with me. And to this day, he and I still have problems because of it.

    I'm sure someone's gonna post some outrageous example of an unruly child who, well, just needs to be hit, because "that's the only way it'll learn anything." Whatever. I don't buy it.

    Dedalus

  • Simon
    Simon

    We've found that Liam especially is very stubborn (Dylan will probably be the same - it's the 'Green-Gene') and smacking him achieves absolutely nothing at all. In fact, he will become more and more determined to do whatever it is he isn't supposed to.

    If we tell him how much he has upset us or hurt Dylan or whatever then it breaks his heart and he really sobs. I think smacking is quite overrated but is *sometimes* needed. It is too easy for it to become the easy option though.

    Best to try and reason with them and explain why something has to be done. I've had Liam jump up eager to put all his toys away when I've done this after him throwing them round the room. It definitely takes more time and effort to do this though than just give them a smack but hopefully, in 10-15 years time it will pay off.

  • LDH
    LDH

    Interestingly, last week I was in bed not feeling well at all, when my daughter's orthodontist called to say we were missing her appointment! I had to hustle to get her there and I kept telling her do NOT answer the phone, etc etc GET DRESSED WASH FACE BRUSH TEETH HURRY HURRY HURRY they are holding the appt for us.

    Out of nowhere, the stinking doorbell rings. I yell (not AT, but TO) Eden and say "Don't answer the door!"

    She responded to me, "MAN. WHAT is your problem with me today?"

    Now, I told her I was going to smack her for talking back to me, something she had never done, and neither had I.

    I waited a good few minutes then LIGHTLY smacked her mouth. She was so SHOCKED, she gasped and grabbed her face!

    She apologised without being asked to.

    I don't think I shall ever do that again, as I don't believe in spanking. We were spanked for breakfast lunch and dinner, LOL, and I strongly disagree with it.

    Anyhow, altho I don't ever plan to do it again, I certainly don't need the gub'mint telling me I can't!

    It reminds me of a Black mom I saw on a talk show talking about how she whips her son if he gets out of line. The host asked her why, and she said, "Because if I don't beat him now, YOU (Society) will beat him later."

  • Free2Bme
    Free2Bme

    I don't think smacking is the answer. Sometimes it is just an angry reaction to disobedience and what does that teach our kids about violence?
    When I was a kid my dad mostly ignored us but occasionally got involved with discipline by beating us with belts, shoes and handy hard objects. Mum was into hairbrushes and sandshoes and "don't flinch take your punishment!!!"( she'll kill me when she reads this!..figuratively of course)
    More effective by far was deprivation.Sent to bed .No telly. No sweets.You know the sort of thing. Worked didn't it? Mind you that was before the days where kids bedrooms were equipped with TVs,videos,music systems,PC's and Dreamcast! Send em to bed these days?More like NOT sending them to bed as a good punishment lol.

    One memory I have of a brother in our congregation who was very keen on not sparing the rod was cringing at the meetings when his tiny baby started crying. He would take it to the back and smack it's bottom none too gently through it's nappy! That,imo,was nothing less than child abuse.

    Free

  • Englishman
    Englishman

    Sorry, I can't resist this from Monty Python:

    Well we had it tough. We used to have to get up out of the shoebox
    at twelve o'clock at night, and LICK the road clean with our tongues.
    We had half a handful of freezing cold gravel, worked twenty-four
    hours a day at the mill for fourpence every six years, and when we
    got home, our Dad would slice us in two with a bread knife.
    EI: Right. I had to get up in the morning at ten o'clock at night,
    half an hour before I went to bed, (pause for laughter), eat a lump
    of cold poison, work twenty-nine hours a day down mill, and pay mill
    owner for permission to come to work, and when we got home,
    our Dad would kill us, and dance about on our graves
    singing "Hallelujah."
    MP: But you try and tell the young people today that... and they won't
    believe ya'

    Englishman raisin' the standards.......

    ..... fanaticism masquerading beneath a cloak of reasoned logic.

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