Mexican documents anyone?

by Bubbamar 9 Replies latest watchtower scandals

Bubbamar

I was wondering if anyone has any official documents from Mexico showing that Mexicans were never prohibited from engaging in religious activities such as singing and praying during the time period that the Mexican JW's classified themselves as a culteral organization for the purpose of owning property. (was that sentence long enough?jeez) OR that what did change (when the Mexican JW's were brought to tears over the new freedom to sing and pray) was actually the ability for religious entities to own property.
Also, does anyone know how the rank & file Mexican JW's rationalized the fact that other religious people were able to pray and sing during this time period?
I hope that all made sense.
Thanks
Corvin

While married to my first wife, we lived for a time in Tecate, BC. We attended a congregation down there and singing songs and prayer was omitted altogether from the meetings. It was strange and cool at the same time. I only recall that the explanation given for no singing and prayer was very ambiguous and I don't recall what the reason actually given was. I will ask my ex next time she is not being randomly hostile toward me and the kids.
Corvin
Bubbamar

The constitution of 1917. The constitution of 1917 highlighted and institutionalized many of the nineteenth-century secular reforms. The new constitution included at least five articles that affected all religious groups, regardless of denomination. These articles, which remained in effect until 1992, appeared to preclude any national role for the Roman Catholic Church. Article 3 forbade churches from participating in primary and secondary education. Article 5 prohibited the establishment of religious orders. Article 24 mandated that all religious ceremonies occur within church buildings. Article 27 gave the state ownership of all church buildings.

Okay - I'm posting on my own thread. I found this on the internet - I didn't highlight the blue - just the yello. Now I'm confused....what does article 5 mean? Article 24 makes it sound like they COULD pray and sing. Article 27 makes Ray's point but does article 5 validate the JW point?
Elsewhere

Okay - I'm posting on my own thread. I found this on the internet - I didn't highlight the blue - just the yello. Now I'm confused....what does article 5 mean? Article 24 makes it sound like they COULD pray and sing. Article 27 makes Ray's point but does article 5 validate the JW point?

The thing the WTS did not like was in the yellow... no religious organization may own property. Basically the WTS wanted to own the property but the Mexican law states that they could not own anything.
Once again, it all comes down to money. When WTS had a choice:
Worship freely without owning property
or
Restrict their worship while owning property
They chose to own the property... this tells you their priority.
Bubbamar
Okay - I found most of what I was looking for. I posted it in case anyone else is interested.
The constitution of 1917 Click here: 1917 Constitution of Mexico
Article 24 . Everyone is free to embrace the religion of his choice and to practice all ceremonies, devotions, or observances of his respective faith, either in places of public worship or at home, provided they do not constitute an offense punishable by law.
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Every religious act of public worship must be performed strictly inside places of public worship, which shall at all times be under governmental supervision.
Religious institutions known as churches, regardless of creed, may in no case acquire, hold, or administer real property or hold mortgages thereon; such property held at present either directly or through an intermediary shall revert to the Nation, any person whosoever being authorized to denounce any property so held. Presumptive evidence shall be sufficient to declare the denunciation well founded. Places of public worship are the property of the Nation, as represented by the Federal Government, which shall determine which of them may continue to be devoted to their present purposes. Bishoprics, rectories, seminaries, asylums, and schools belonging to religious orders, convents, or any other buildings built or intended for the administration, propagation, or teaching of a religious creed shall at once become the property of the Nation by inherent right, to be used exclusively for the public services of the Federal or State Governments, within their respective jurisdictions. All places of public worship hereafter erected shall be the property of the Nation.
This is interesting. This is apparently the loophole the JW's used. Note that they were still not supposed to own the property.
1. Public or private charitable institutions for the rendering of assistance to the needy, for scientific research, the diffusion of knowledge, mutual aid to members, or for any other lawful purpose, may not acquire more real property than actually needed for their purpose and immediately and directly devoted thereto; but they may acquire, hold, or administer mortgages on real property provided the term thereof does not exceed ten years. Under no circumstances may institutions of this kind be under the patronage, direction, administration, charge, or supervision of religious orders or institutions, or of ministers of any religious sect or of their followers, even though the former or the latter may not be in active service.
catchthis

What the Awake has to say on this matter....notice the last subheading in particular:

*** g94 7/22 pp. 12-14 Mexico Changes Its Laws on Religion ***

Mexico Changes Its Laws on Religion

ON JULY 16, 1992, THE NEW LAW OF RELIGIOUS ASSOCIATIONS AND PUBLIC WORSHIP WAS PUT INTO EFFECT IN MEXICO. WHY WAS THIS NECESSARY, AND WHAT DOES THIS NEW LAW CONVEY? LET US TAKE A LOOK INTO THIS MATTER THAT HAS AROUSED MUCH ANTICIPATION.

WITH Spain?s conquest of what is now Mexico, the Catholic religion was imposed by force on the people. When the time came to legislate religious matters, a law of Spain, the Constitución de Cádiz (1812), was applied in part; Article 12 stated: ?The religion of the Spanish Nation is and will forever be Catholic, Apostolic, Roman, the one and only true religion.? Later on, in 1824, a Constitution was established for Mexico, and it stated: ?The religion of the Mexican Nation is and will forever be Catholic, Apostolic, Roman. The Nation protects it by wise and just laws, and prohibits the exercise of any other.? Although there were several revisions of the law of the country, the same idea was expressed even until 1843, granting the Catholic religion priority and, in fact, excluding any other religion.

It was in 1857 that Benito Juárez, a Mexican statesman, started a revision of the laws of the country introducing what was called Laws of the Reformation. This was to ?nationalize the real estate of the church? and ?to increase the political and economic power of the State and to decrease that of the [Catholic] Church.? (Historia de México, Volume 10, page 2182) In this group of laws of 1859, the Law of Nationalization of Ecclesiastical Properties was promulgated, as well as a law requiring that marriages be performed by the State in order for them to be legal. In 1860 the Law for Religious Freedom was promulgated.

The reformation laws granted a certain amount of religious freedom to the people, stipulating that the Catholic religion would no longer be the only one that could exist in the country. However, this new freedom was quite limited and conditional. The laws recognized that religions existed in Mexico but did not accord them any legal recognition or rights. Reformation laws were specially designed to limit the Catholic religion but incidentally also limited all religions in the country. Nevertheless, religions apart from Catholicism could then function more freely, and Protestant religions from the United States started an evangelization campaign in the country.

The reformation laws were reinforced in 1917, with the same anticlerical spirit, which caused persecution of the priests and Catholic people. This gave way to the Cristeros war in 1926, a Catholic war against the government that was an attempt to cancel the restrictive laws governing religion. This war concluded in 1929 with some agreement of tolerance by the government, but the laws continued without modification.

In a commentary about these laws, the book Una Ley Para la Libertad Religiosa (A Law for Religious Freedom) mentions: ?We realize that originally our Constitutional Article 24 in its second paragraph, and the other reformed constitutional articles, were clearly an infringement of religious freedom, since they limited the external practice of every individual?s religion and subjected the practice thereof to regulation dictated by the authority.

?Furthermore, these constitutional dispositions were clearly contradictory to what was established in the United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights (Article 19) and to the American Convention of Human Rights (Article 12), which international instruments the Mexican State has endorsed.?

In 1988, when the new president of Mexico started his six-year term, the Catholic hierarchy was invited to the presidential inauguration. In his message, President Carlos Salinas de Gortari announced the need to modernize the relations between Church and State. This new approach led to the conclusion that a revision of the laws relative to religion was mandatory. Besides that, the country was developing into a more democratic society, and negotiations were started for a free trade agreement with the United States and Canada. So it was essential to revise the law to make it consistent with freedom of religion.

The New Law

The new law, as stated in its first article, is ?founded on the historic principle of separation of Church and State, as well as on freedom of religious beliefs . . .? The second article guarantees freedom for the individual ?to have or to adopt the religious beliefs that he prefers and practice, collectively or individually, the acts of worship or rites of his preference . . . , to profess no religious beliefs . . . , not to be an object of discrimination, coercion, or hostility because of one?s religious beliefs . . . , to associate and meet together peacefully for religious purposes.? Through this law, ?churches and religious groups will have legal status as religious institutions as soon as they obtain the corresponding required registry before the Ministry of Government.? Also, ?religious institutions formed according to the present law may have their own patrimony that allows them to fulfill their objective.?

Jehovah?s Witnesses Are Registered Legally

In accord with this new law, Jehovah?s Witnesses in Mexico presented an application to the Office of Religious Affairs on April 13, 1993, to be registered as a religion. Before that time Jehovah?s Witnesses, as any other religion in the country, existed de facto but had no legal personality. Jehovah?s Witnesses had been present in the country since early in the 20th century. Although there was no legal recognition, on June 2, 1930, the government of Mexico authorized the International Association of Bible Students. On December 20, 1932, this name was changed to La Torre del Vigía (The Watchtower). But in 1943, because of laws that limited religious activities in the country, a new entity was registered as a civil association. In this way Jehovah blessed the work that Jehovah?s Witnesses had been carrying out throughout the years. At present, in accord with a document dated May 7, 1993, which was forwarded to them on May 31, 1993, Jehovah?s Witnesses are registered as La Torre del Vigía, A. R., and Los Testigos de Jehová en México, A. R., both of them religious associations.

Under these new provisions, Jehovah?s Witnesses in Mexico, as in 230 other lands in the world, continue working hard in preaching the Kingdom of God. There is a big program of expansion in Mexico, which includes the construction of new Kingdom Halls and new Assembly Halls. With more than 380,000 publishers and some 30,000 new ones getting baptized each year, there is a lot of work to do, as manifested in the 530,000 home Bible studies that are being conducted at present.

This does not mean that all the problems are solved for Jehovah?s Witnesses in Mexico. Their children still have to face pressures in school because of the neutrality issue. The authorities, however, seek to apply the new law in an equitable way in dealing with the different religions in the country. Mexico has indeed taken a big step in the defense of human rights and religious freedom with the new law concerning religion.
So what where these new laws in/around 1943? That may be the kicker in finding out what really happened. Were the halls originally owned by the gov't prior to 1943, but the Society wised up under The Judge and took it "civil" to save their equity?
Yerusalyim

Article 5 (as most of the constitution) was directed primarily against the Catholic Church...a Religious Order would be a group of adults getting together to try to live the gospel with a particular emphasis, say, education...they generally would live together. In the Medieval ages and in Mexico, these groups owned property and became QUITE powerful.
Not trying to support the JW's here, but just because a "constitution" grants a right doesn't mean you get that right in practice. The Chinese and Vietmanese Constitutions grant Freedom of Religion, but try to practice outside of a state run church.
Still, the issue is about as put forth here...the JW's could worship freely or own property, but not both.
catchthis

*** yb95 pp. 211-213 Mexico ***

La Torre del Vigía de México?A Cultural Society

You will recall that back in 1932 La Torre del Vigía de México had been authorized by the government. However, there were obstacles because of the restrictions that the law imposed on all religions. Objections were raised to the house-to-house activity of the Witnesses, since the law stipulated that ?every religious act of public worship must be held inside the temples.? For the same reason, objections were raised to our conventions in public places. This was a problem, because these conventions were constantly getting larger. Owning property also presented problems, because the law required that every building used for religious purposes had to become federal property.

For these and other reasons, the Society decided that it would be wise to reorganize, with a view to giving greater emphasis to the educational nature of our work. Therefore, on June 10, 1943, application was made to the Secretariat of Foreign Affairs to register La Torre del Vigía as a civil society, and this was approved on June 15, 1943.

With this rearrangement, singing at our meetings was discontinued, and the meeting places became known as Halls for Cultural Studies. No audible prayers were said at meetings, though nothing could prevent a person from saying an earnest prayer silently in his heart. Every appearance of a religious service was avoided, and truly our meetings are designed for education. When Witnesses in other lands began to call their local groups ?congregations,? the Witnesses in Mexico kept on using the term ?companies.? House-to-house visits by the Witnesses continued, and with even more zeal; but direct use of the Bible at doors was avoided. Instead, publishers learned the texts by heart so that they could quote them. They also made good use of the book ?Make Sure of All Things,? which is a compilation of Scripture quotations on many subjects. Only on return visits and on studies (which were termed ?cultural? instead of ?Bible?) was the Bible itself used.

The principal work of Jehovah?s Witnesses remained the same, namely, preaching the good news of God?s Kingdom.
So what was wrong with having the Halls for Cultural Studies become federal property? You would think that using the bible in FS and being able to petition Jehovah in prayer and sing songs to him just like the disciples of old would far outweigh the loss of owning these "halls." $$$
johnny cip

funny in the 2 article by catchthis the wt admitts it , changed their worship for land ownershp without coming straight out and saying it. . they have a lot balls. i know this topic has been talked about before, but i think this really shows the wts true colors, they will do whatever it takes to own real estate, just like what they did in germany in 1934-36 kissing up to hilter to keep the land. john

Gerard

Mexican Constitution:

Art. 24

ARTICULO 24. TODO HOMBRE ES LIBRE PARA PROFESAR LA CREENCIA RELIGIOSA QUE MAS LE AGRADE Y PARA PRACTICAR LAS CEREMONIAS, DEVOCIONES O ACTOS DEL CULTO RESPECTIVO, SIEMPRE QUE NO CONSTITUYAN UN DELITO O FALTA PENADOS POR LA LEY.

EL CONGRESO NO PUEDE DICTAR LEYES QUE ESTABLEZCAN O PROHIBAN RELIGION ALGUNA.

LOS ACTOS RELIGIOSOS DE CULTO PUBLICO SE CELEBRARAN ORDINARIAMENTE EN LOS TEMPLOS. LOS QUE EXTRAORDINARIAMENTE SE CELEBREN FUERA DE ESTOS SE SUJETARAN A LA LEY REGLAMENTARIA.

Article 24: Every person is free to express and practice the religious beliefs he/she prefers, as long as they are not a crime as defined by the law.

The congress cannot dictate laws that estblish or prohibit any particular religion.

Public religious acts normaly will be celebrated in the temples. Those acts celebrated outside churches, are subject to reglaments (Ed: meaning those laws in palce for civilized and orderly manifestations).

Art. 130

ARTICULO 130. EL PRINCIPIO HISTORICO DE LA SEPARACION DEL ESTADO Y LAS IGLESIAS ORIENTA LAS NORMAS CONTENIDAS EN EL PRESENTE ARTICULO. LAS IGLESIAS Y DEMAS AGRUPACIONES RELIGIOSAS SE SUJETARAN A LA LEY.

CORRESPONDE EXCLUSIVAMENTE AL CONGRESO DE LA UNION LEGISLAR EN MATERIA DE CULTO PUBLICO Y DE IGLESIAS Y AGRUPACIONES RELIGIOSAS. LA LEY REGLAMENTARIA RESPECTIVA, QUE SERA DE ORDEN PUBLICO, DESARROLLARA Y CONCRETARA LAS DISPOSICIONES SIGUIENTES:

A) LAS IGLESIAS Y LAS AGRUPACIONES RELIGIOSAS TENDRAN PERSONALIDAD JURIDICA COMO ASOCIACIONES RELIGIOSAS UNA VEZ QUE OBTENGAN SU CORRESPONDIENTE REGISTRO. LA LEY REGULARA DICHAS ASOCIACIONES Y DETERMINARA LAS CONDICIONES Y REQUISITOS PARA EL REGISTRO CONSTITUTIVO DE LAS MISMAS;

B) LAS AUTORIDADES NO INTERVENDRAN EN LA VIDA INTERNA DE LAS ASOCIACIONES RELIGIOSAS;

C) LOS MEXICANOS PODRAN EJERCER EL MINISTERIO DE CUALQUIER CULTO. LOS MEXICANOS ASI COMO LOS EXTRANJEROS DEBERAN, PARA ELLO, SATISFACER LOS REQUISITOS QUE SEÑALE LA LEY;

D) EN LOS TERMINOS DE LA LEY REGLAMENTARIA, LOS MINISTROS DE CULTOS NO PODRAN DESEMPEÑAR CARGOS PUBLICOS. COMO CIUDADANOS TENDRAN DERECHO A VOTAR, PERO NO A SER VOTADOS. QUIENES HUBIEREN DEJADO DE SER MINISTROS DE CULTOS CON LA ANTICIPACION Y EN LA FORMA QUE ESTABLEZCA LA LEY, PODRAN SER VOTADOS;

E) LOS MINISTROS NO PODRAN ASOCIARSE CON FINES POLITICOS NI REALIZAR PROSELITISMO A FAVOR O EN CONTRA DE CANDIDATO, PARTIDO O ASOCIACION POLITICA ALGUNA. TAMPOCO PODRAN EN REUNION PUBLICA, EN ACTOS DE CULTO O DE PROPAGANDA RELIGIOSA, NI EN PUBLICACIONES DE CARACTER RELIGIOSO, OPONERSE A LAS LEYES DEL PAIS O A SUS INSTITUCIONES, NI AGRAVIAR, DE CUALQUIER FORMA, LOS SIMBOLOS PATRIOS.

QUEDA ESTRICTAMENTE PROHIBIDA LA FORMACION DE TODA CLASE DE AGRUPACIONES POLITICAS CUYO TITULO TENGA ALGUNA PALABRA O INDICACION CUALQUIERA QUE LA RELACIONE CON ALGUNA CONFESION RELIGIOSA. NO PODRAN CELEBRARSE EN LOS TEMPLOS REUNIONES DE CARACTER POLITICO.

LA SIMPLE PROMESA DE DECIR VERDAD Y DE CUMPLIR LAS OBLIGACIONES QUE SE CONTRAEN, SUJETA AL QUE LA HACE, EN CASO DE QUE FALTARE A ELLA, A LAS PENAS QUE CON TAL MOTIVO ESTABLECE LA LEY.

LOS MINISTROS DE CULTOS, SUS ASCENDIENTES, DESCENDIENTES, HERMANOS Y CONYUGES, ASI COMO LAS ASOCIACIONES RELIGIOSAS A QUE AQUELLOS PERTENEZCAN, SERAN INCAPACES PARA HEREDAR POR TESTAMENTO, DE LAS PERSONAS A QUIENES LOS PROPIOS MINISTROS HAYAN DIRIGIDO O AUXILIADO ESPIRITUALMENTE Y NO TENGAN PARENTESCO DENTRO DEL CUARTO GRADO.

LOS ACTOS DEL ESTADO CIVIL DE LAS PERSONAS SON DE LA EXCLUSIVA COMPETENCIA DE LAS AUTORIDADES ADMINISTRATIVAS EN LOS TERMINOS QUE ESTABLEZCAN LAS LEYES, Y TENDRAN LA FUERZA Y VALIDEZ QUE LAS MISMAS LES ATRIBUYAN.

LAS AUTORIDADES FEDERALES, DE LOS ESTADOS Y DE LOS MUNICIPIOS TENDRAN EN ESTA MATERIA LAS FACULTADES Y RESPONSABILIDADES QUE DETERMINE LA LEY.

(BabelFish translation):

ARTICLE 130. The Historic principle OF THE CHURCH AND STATE SEPARATION, rules the NORMS CONTAINED IN THE PRESENT ARTICLE. CHURCHES And other RELIGIOUS GROUPINGS are SUBJECTED To the LAW. IT CORRESPONDS ONLY To the CONGRESS OF The UNION TO LEGISLATE IN THE MATTER OF public religions, churches and religious associations. The RESPECTIVE PRESCRIBED LAW has been developed, DEVELOPED And MADE SPECIFIC The FOLLOWING DISPOSITIONS:
A) RELIGIOUS CHURCHES And GROUPINGS will have legitimacy ONCE THEY OBTAIN their CORRESPONDING REGISTRY. The LAW REGULATES THESE ASSOCIATIONS and DETERMINES The CONDITIONS And REQUIREMENTS FOR The CONSTITUENT REGISTRY OF The SAME; B) AUTHORITIES Cannot intervene IN The INTERNAL LIFE OF RELIGIOUS ASSOCIATIONS; C) The MEXICAN people can practice any religion or cult. Mexicans, LIKE FOREIGNERS must SATISFY THE REQUIREMENTS THAT THE LAW INDICATES; D) Under The TERMINOS OF The PRESCRIBED LAW, current cult (religious ministers) MINISTERS can not CARRY OUT government positions. LIKE any CITIZEN, they have the right to VOTE, BUT NOT To BEING VOTED into office. Those who ARE NOT MINISTERS any more may be VOTED in office. E) Religious MINISTERS cannot BE ASSOCIATED WITH POLITICAL parties, MUST NOT preach in FAVOR OR AGAINST A CANDIDATE, PARTY OR A POLITICAL ASSOCIATION. IT IS FORBIDEN THAT DURING PUBLIC religious REUNIONS, or PUBLICATIONS, TO BE AGAINST To The LAWS Of Mexico Or THEIR INSTITUTIONS, NOR TO OFFEND, Anyway, National symbols. IT IS strictly FORBIDEN The FORMATION OF ANY CLASS OF POLITICAL GROUP IN WHOSE TITLE OR MESSAGE ARE RELATED WITH ANY RELIGION. IT IS FORBIDEN TO HOLD POLITICAL MEETINGS INSIDE RELIGIOUS TEMPLES. The SIMPLE PROMISE TO SAY the TRUTH And TO FULFILL The OBLIGATIONS THAT ARE CONTRACTED, HOLDS. IN CASE THAT IT WILL NEED, THE LAW WILL PENALIZE ACORDIGLY.

The MINISTERS OF CULTS (religions), their relatives ASCENDING, DESCENDING ones, BROTHERS, family in law, as well as the religious organization to which they belong, are NOT allowed to INHERIT goods BY TESTAMENT offered by of those PEOPLE To WHO Their OWN MINISTERS HAVE DIRECTED Or HELPED SPIRITUALLY And DO NOT HAVE KINSHIP Within The FOURTH DEGREE (Ed: Four filial generations).

Mexican documents anyone?

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