? for elders and former elders...

by somebody 8 Replies latest jw friends

somebody

After reading Thirdson's post on Sin and Mercy... the watchtower way, I was wondering how a disfellowshipped person is able to PROVE to the elders that they are repentant. Considering that it's not a Biblical command to confess out sins to elders, nor to have to prove to them we are repentant, but rather it's a command of the WBTS to it's followers, I was appauled to read the following in the flock "book of rules" written by the WBTS for the elders to follow.
"How funeral arrangements for a disfellowshipped person
may be handled:
If the disfellowshipped person had been giving evidence
of repentance, some brother's conscience might allow him
to give a Bible talk at the funeral home or grave site.
However, the Kingdom Hall should not be used. (w81
9/15 p. 31; w77 6/1 pp. 347-8)"
I couldn't help but put the phrase "trying to prove repentance to us" in place of the "giving evidence of repentance". If the sinner dies while trying to prove that they are repentant, well that seems to be tough shit for them. They died in the state of BELIEVING that they were in the hands of satan. They died with the belief that to be forgiven by God, they first had to prove the the "loving" people in the congregation that they were repentant for the sin they committed. They died thinking that Jesus didn't give his life for them at all.
The elders are not to show forgivenss even after the sinner has died, by not letting the family or loved ones of the deceased have athe funeral service on the property of the WBTS even though the deceased was surely and factually trying hard to prove to the elders that they were repentant of their sin. And to make matters even more sick, the following quote follows.
Be "Imitators of God"
Jehovah is a God of justice; he is merciful, kind, loving,
and patient. (E~. 34:6, 7; Ps. 37:28)
As you deal with your brothers, imitate Jehovah in dis-
playing these qualities, and you will bring honor to him
and be a blessing to your brothers. (Eph. 5:1 )
How is not forgiving a sinner who was "giving evidence" of repentance and then died, showing ANY mercy, kindness, or patience?
Anyhoo...my questions for any elder or former elder, from their experience with congregations are:
What does it take to prove to elders that one is repentant for their sin?
How long does one have to go on "giving evidence" of being repentant in order to be forgiven for their sins and taken back out of satan's hands by elders?
peace,
somebody.....who now has humble's statement.." I am proud that I was able to guide them into the teachings of our Lord, Jesus and his father." on her mind. And how that was truly a lie, considering the what the organisation tells elders to do to fellow sinners. Even ones who die while trying to prove to elders that they are repentant. humble is proud of guiding 50 people into the organisation that teaches it's followers not to show forgiveness, mercy, love, kindness, or patience to fellow sinners.
http://home2.inet.tele.dk/carloc/index.htm
JWinSF

Gosh, it's been a while since I was an elder [stepped down in 1985, left the JWs in 1994]. I don't clearly remember many judicial cases of individuals coming back to get reinstated. I had been on those where a person was getting disfellowshipped. Basically, the "repentance" would be the same as that shown for those in a judicial case that would not result in a DFing. In other words, the person was no longer doing what they were "guilty" of to merit a judicial case [e.g., smoking, sex outside of marriage]. Also, they had to be expressive of how much they hated what they did. Other contributing factors: Praying, attending meetings, etc.
Of course, a person could easily "act" that they were repentant when in fact they were not.
IMO, it's all "Bull". The JWs don't even follow the Biblical example of the Prodigal Son. When the son had left the father's household, squandered his money, lived a debauched life, and came back to his father, the JW approach would have been for the father to have his son sit at the back of the room, be silent for about a year, be on his best behavior, meet with the elders periodically and THEN, MAYBE, the son would be welcomed back to the family. How contrary to the Biblical example where the father DID NOT hold the "sins" of his son against him, he THREW A BANQUET for him, there was NO PERIOD of "proving himself".
Just goes to show that the JWs are screwed up in the whole DFing thing. That, amongst many other things that they are screwed up in theologically speaking.
Thanx for the question.
somebody

IMO, it's all "Bull".

We agree on that!

The JWs don't even follow the Biblical example of the Prodigal Son. When the son had left the father's household, squandered his money, lived a debauched life, and came back to his father, the JW approach would have been for the father to have his son sit at the back of the room, be silent for about a year, be on his best behavior, meet with the elders periodically and THEN, MAYBE, the son would be welcomed back to the family. How contrary to the Biblical example where the father DID NOT hold the "sins" of his son against him, he THREW A BANQUET for him, there was NO PERIOD of "proving himself".
Great biblical example you used! There is a BIG difference in what the society teaches about repentance and forgiveness, and what the Bible teaches. And from what you've said, am I wrong to assume that it takes about a year of proving to the elders that a sinner is repentant?
peace,
somebody
Amazing

Hi Somebody: I will answer as though I were still an Elder and in the context of about 9 years ago - this allows for the fact that the WTS continuously 'refine' thier procedures:
You asked,
What does it take to prove to elders that one is repentant for their sin?
Proof of repentance is summed up in 'works that befit repentance.' So, a DF person who stops the wrong act, say smoking, for a reasonable period of time. The person would be attending all of the meetings, but only at the Kingdom Hall, not private home Book Study. They would not be enagaing in other acts in addition to what got them DF'd. And when they applied for reinstatement, their letter given to one of the Elders on the JC would have some bearing in how well it characterized their feelings ... such as taking full responsibility for the sin and making a firm committment not to do it again. The meeting with the JC to discuss reinstatement would be one where they have full opportunity to characterize their conduct, attitude, and progress.
You asked,
How long does one have to go on "giving evidence" of being repentant in order to be forgiven for their sins and taken back out of satan's hands by elders?
Usually the mental rule of thumb is a few months, perhaps 6 or more. But, depending on the sin and the situation this period could be shorter or longer. The smoking example above would likely require 6 months because that is the time frame the Society originally gave smokers to quit in August 1974, and some Elders harken back to that article. But, if they only smoked a little, then as little as two or three months and the person could be reinstated. If they committed adultery, perhaps a year or more, especially if it involved divorce, pregnancy out of wedlock ... because these complications are suggestive that the sinner really blew it.
Example: A 19 year old teen has sex one time with a girl no other things result, he might be given a few months in the DF can. But, say a 30 year old brother who has children commits adultery with a married women who also has children, and they divorce their mates and get married, and break up two families, it will be years before they are reinstated ... and after reinstatement it will be about ten years before the brother can be used again as an Elder. If he is a child molester, unless he got caught and went to prison, he would suffer a less stringent fate with the Elders because the issue is easier to hide then divorce and remarriage among adulterers.
Hope this helps. - Amazing
JWinSF

I've heard of cases taking up to a year. But, that's heresay, I don't know of those personally. It definitely is a minimum of months. Such a degrading experience that one who honestly wants to "be made whole" has to go through to be part of "Jehovah's Happy People". The very antithesis of "Christian Love". There is more true love shown in "The World" than in the Organizational straight-jacketed Congregations of Jehovah's Witnesses.
See ya,
somebody

Thank you both for answering my questions.
Amazing,
I could not get over this:
And when they applied for reinstatement, their letter given to one of the Elders on the JC..
I never knew that the sinner had to "apply" for forgiveness in the form of a letter either. I thought the elders just announced that you were reinstated after you proved you were sorry enough for committing a sin. I don't know why the letter deal surprized me. I thought nothing would by now! It just shows me more that so many rules made up by the society are not based on the Bible or the teachings of Jesus at all.
I'm happy that you both saw what you were involved in, and in time, got out of it.
peace,
somebody
chipster

good question....
the thing that we used to look at was meeting attendance mostly....
i have to laugh when i think about one fellow elder that used to discretely roam the KH during the watchtower study to see if any attending DF ones had underlined their WT...that way you KNEW that they were really studying and therefore, showing repentance...
funny, when i was trying to get reinstated for 18 months, i actually HIGHLITED in FLORESCENT hiliters my lesson...didn't do a damn bit of good, LOL they made me wait to TEACH me patience and humility..LOL
seems that some self righteous, sadistic, holier than thou elders love to see DFd ones crawl back on their hands and knees....i had the chairman of my JC actually stuff my reinstatement request letter into his briefcase for three weeks before he even showed it to the other bros on the committee..
bottom line is: you really have no idea whether the person is repentant or not..guess you just have to "let the holy spirit move you" in these matters if you're on the JC handling a reinstatement plea..
formerly a "high achiever in the org", you can now sign me....
out and free, and living life in the "now".. yeaaaaaaaa!!!!
btw, there is life after DF'g. there is also life after divorce...and, yes, there is also life after alcohol...
Pork Chop

I'll tell you one thing. If you reinstate someone after less than six months you get a nasty letter from the Service Desk asking why you disfellowshipped them in the first place.
somebody

Thank you for replies.
chipster,
btw, there is life after DF'g. there is also life after divorce...and, yes, there is also life after alcohol...
Sounds like it's been a rough road for you. Is your story posted on the board anywhere?
Pork Chop,
If you reinstate someone after less than six months you get a nasty letter from the Service Desk asking why you disfellowshipped them in the first place.
Can you elaborate on that? Are you speaking from experience? I find it amazing that there actually is a time limit to prove repentance afterall. I'll say more about that at a later date.
peace,
somebody

? for elders and former elders...

Share this