Just a bit "funny" as to religious persecution

by TheOldHippie 8 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • TheOldHippie
    TheOldHippie

    The right to believe, to worship and witness. The right to change one's belief or religion. The right to join together and express one's belief.

    Forum18, which - similar to Amnesty and other groups - does a great job in directing the public's attention to acts of religious and other types of discrimination, persecution etc., and which frequently reports on persecution against JWs in Central Asian counties such as Turkmenistan etc., has the above three lines as its slogan.

    It just makes me wonder ....... "The right to change one's belief or religion", "The right to join together and express one's belief". Well, one of the groups Forum18 reports on as being persecuted, does not exactly tolerate free expression of thought, does not exactly tolerate "inofficial" gatherings, does not exactly give its members the right of changing their membership status or beliefs etc. ....... So let us make full use of the world's resources, but totally deny it the right of investigating ourselves .....

  • TallTexan
    TallTexan

    Yeah, isn't it funny how the WTS will use the hell out of every government agency it can to further it's purposes yet tell us to be 'no part of the world'? I'll bet if you were to join or send money to Amnesty International or Forum18 you'd get a quick counseling on how that money should be going to the Society and that we shouldn't support worldly organizations, yet they will take all they can from these organizations.

  • Norm
    Norm

    Hi OldH,

    Here is a mail I sent to Forum18, of course I never had a reply:

    ----------------------------------------------------------------- Read in your news about the Witnesses that was sacked for being JW's. It is very apalling.You should however know that internally
    JW's have absolutely no respect for any of the Human Rights they so much want for their organization. Iinside the Watchtower all indivduals are denied those very same rights.


    ?True freedom??

    The Watchtower Society regularly brag about the incredible ?freedom? all Jehovah's Witnesses are supposed to enjoy. This is of course in stark contrast to the downtrodden masses in the world, not to speak of the poor Catholics and Protestants, which are in bondage under their clergy.

    ? Millions now enjoy true freedom as Jehovah?s Witnesses? Watchtower March 15. 1992, page 15.

    Because of their many strange rules Jehovah's Witnesses often gets into conflict with Society in general. One such conflict was reported from the

    ?The Meaning for Lovers of Freedom

    All lovers of freedom certainly rejoice in this decision to uphold the right of free choice in the matter of religion and in the dictates of one?s conscience, while at the same time being subject to the relative authority of the state. (Romans 13:1, 2) In protecting the rights of individuals, the State does not open the way for anarchy but, rather, serves in the role mentioned by the apostle Paul at Romans 13:5, 6, where he states: ?There is . . . compelling reason for you people to be in subjection, . . . on account of your conscience. For that is why you are also paying taxes; for they are God?s public servants constantly serving this very purpose.? Jehovah?s Witnesses in the respect the jurisprudence of the justices of the Supreme Court and realize that final credit must be given to our Creator, Jehovah God.? Awake! January 8. 1994, page 23.

    A case of a similar nature was reported from . This time it was about the right to preach. Here the Watchtower quote the Human Rights convention:

    ?Since is a member-state of the Council of Europe, it is obliged to conform to the Articles of the European Convention on Human Rights. Article 9 of the Convention reads: ?Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief, in worship, teaching, practice and observance.? Watchtower September 1. 1993, page 30.

    In both of these cases the rulings was in favour of the Witnesses. Something that without any doubt was right and just, and good examples that democracy and the legal system really works. It is however very sad, tragic and a paradox that absolutely none of these freedoms is extended to the Watchtower Society?s own members! Let us take a closer look at what conditions there is for those human rights and that freedom which the Watchtower cult yell and scream about, internally in the Watchtower organization. We will get a pretty good idea by reading the following ?Questions from readers? column in the Watchtower:

    ?? Why have Jehovah?s Witnesses disfellowshipped (excommunicated) for apostasy some who still profess belief in God, the Bible, and Jesus Christ?? Watchtower April 1. 1986, page 30.

    In the answer to this question the Watchtower states among other things the following:

    ? Those who voice such an objection point out that many religious organizations claiming to be Christian allow dissident views. Even some clergymen disagree with basic teachings of their church, yet they remain in good standing. Watchtower April 1. 1986, page 30.

    Well, what?s the situation in the Watchtower organization? Do its members enjoy the same freedom? Can a Jehovah's Witnesses disagree with any of the ?basic teachings? of the Watchtower Society and remain in ?good standing?? The Magazine says this about the practice in these churches:

    ?However, such examples provide no grounds for our doing the same.? Watchtower April 1. 1986, page 30.

    Whatever do they mean by this? Let us find out:

    ?Teaching dissident or divergent views is not compatible with true Christianity? Watchtower April 1. 1986, page 31.

    This comment should make it pretty clear that the GB doesn?t take kindly to ?divergent views?. But how should one view Jehovah's Witnesses who hold such views? The Magazine states:

    ?Approved association with Jehovah?s Witnesses requires accepting the entire range of the true teachings of the Bible, including those Scriptural beliefs that are unique to Jehovah?s Witnesses.? Watchtower April 1. 1986, page 31.

    The magazine continues to show that anyone who can?t accept all of those ?unique? teachings will be disfellowshipped. It is therefore a fact that freedom of thought, freedom of expression and what we simply call religious freedom is non-existent within the Watchtower organization! Freedom loving people within the Watchtower Society has absolutely no reason to rejoice over enjoying ?true freedom? as the Watchtower magazine above boasted. Jehovah's Witnesses have been completely stripped of all the freedoms of article 9 in the Convention on Human Rights. As we have just documented, they have to accept the teachings of the Watchtower or be disfellowshipped. Jehovah's Witnesses doesn?t enjoy the: ?freedom to change his religion or belief and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief,? Jehovah's Witnesses only ?right ? in this regard is to ?accept? whatever the Watchtower currently teaches. They have no right to disagree with their leaders. This becomes crystal clear when you investigate their literature:

    ?Beware of those who try to put forward their own contrary opinions? Watchtower March 15. 1986, page 17.

    ?Avoid Independent Thinking? Watchtower January 15. 1983, page 22. ?Fight Against Independent Thinking? Watchtower January 15. 1983, page 27.

    It is of course extremely difficult to exercise anything even remotely resembling human rights in an organization where you have to ?Beware of those who try to put forward their own contrary opinions?. Where you must ?fight against? and ?avoid? independent thinking! But at this point some Jehovah's Witness genius will no doubt point out that it is ?independent thinking? is warning against, not ?thinking? as such. Well, please point out the difference between independent thinking and thinking in general. But to deal with this once and for all let us firmly establish how the Watchtower Society define independent thinking. We find it here:

    ?Yet there are some who point out that the organization has had to make adjustments before, and so they argue: ?This shows that we have to make up our own mind on what to believe.? This is independent thinking. Why is it so dangerous?? Watchtower January 15. 1983, page 27.

    If you want to MAKE UP YOUR OWN MIND this is ?INDEPENDENT THINKING?. Yes, read it again. Making up your OWN mind about something must per definition be avoided, yes even fought against! Incredible isn?t it? Although one can actually observe the tremendous success many loyal Jehovah's Witnesses have had in this regard. It is crystal clear that the Watchtower seriously tell every Witness that Watchtower Society are the only ones that is capable of making up every single Jehovah's Witnesses mind for them. But seriously, don?t forget what you just read and take a look at this quote from the Awake?:

    ?Freedom to differ is not limited to things that do not matter much. That would be a mere shadow of freedom. The test of its substance is the right to differ as to things that touch the heart of the existing order.? Awake? January 8. 1994, page 23.

    Yes, what wonderful principles, what freedom. One wonders how a Watchtower writer can quote this with a straight face, knowing full well that no Jehovah's Witness have the ?Freedom to differ? with the GB. It?s a pity that the Watchtower Society only has the death penalty for anyone who dares exercise such rights within their organization. The hypocrisy is staggering. Imagine the nerve of the Watchtower Society, paying lip service and giving praise to lofty principles that is totally banned within their own organization. How does the Watchtower Society stand up to the test when it comes to ?The test of substance? when it comes to the ?right to differ as to things that touch the heart of the existing order.?? How does an organization where it is death penalty for ?putting forward a contrary opinion?, respect ?freedom to differ? But the Awake had more:

    ?The idea that one may be compelled to salute the flag, sing the national anthem, and recite the patriotic pledge, during a flag ceremony on pain of being dismissed from one?s job or of being expelled from school, is alien to the conscience of the present generation of Filipinos who cut their teeth on the Bill of Rights which guarantees their rights to free speech and the free exercise of religious profession and worship.? Awake? January 8. 1994, page 22.

    The sad fact of the matter that the Jehovah's Witness children didn?t enjoy this much hyped freedom at all. They were in fact forced NOT to salute the flag. If any of these children had even tried to exercise their democratic rights and actually saluted the flag, they would have been subjected to disfellowshipping, regarded as dead and shunned by all Jehovah's Witnesses.

    According the Awake! The Supreme Court in the understood that ?In protecting the rights of individuals, the State does not open the way for anarchy?. This is something that the GB in doesn?t understand at all. If everybody doesn?t think and believe exactly like they do, anarchy is a fact in their world.

    The Supreme Court naturally found it illegal to force anyone to salute the flag. But at the same time they were totally ignorant of the fact that the Watchtower Cult systematically denies its own members these rights by forcing them to NOT saluting it, by holding the ?gun? of DF?ing and shunning to their head. The Watchtower willingly gives lip service to these democratic ideals and writes such things as this:

    ? The Meaning for Lovers of Freedom

    All lovers of freedom certainly rejoice in this decision to uphold the right of free choice in the matter of religion and in the dictates of one?s conscience,? Awake! January 8. 1994, page 23.

    While doing this they trample on anything even reminding of such principles within their own organization. The Watchtower Society has absolutely no intention whatsoever to let any Jehovah's Witness ?rejoice? over such freedom. On the contrary, the leaders of the Watchtower Cult is understanding such court rulings as an opportunity to strip their own members of all these rights which they outwardly praise oh so highly.

    When confronted with this obvious lack of respect for everything that reminds of freedom in their organization, the following comment is the usual: ?Of course we have freedom! Those who disagree with us can just leave!? If the Supreme Court in the should use the same reasoning the ruling of that court would have been the following:

    ?Of course we won?t force you to salute the flag, just do as you please! But you must leave the immediately, all citizens will be forbidden to help you and have any contact with you!?

    If any ?worldly? court should have used such utterly ridiculous and uncivilized methods and reasoning as the Watchtower Society we wouldn?t see the end of furious yelling and screaming complaints about lack of respect for human rights and religious freedom in the Watchtower literature. What a display of hypocrisy!

    Norman Hovland

    -----------------------

    Thats was that.

    Norm

  • Sunspot
    Sunspot

    Norm,

    Thanks for your post---it's a keeper!!

    I have been in a discussion with some die-hard JWs recently, (on Beliefnet JW Debate) about how they seem to be able to "pick 'n choose" which counsel they wish to abide by.

    They say that the GB only offers "suggestions" (about participating with conversations with known "apostates" DFed and DAed exJWs on the 'net) and are quite hostile about this being "for the weaker ones" who might have their spirituality corrupted, etc. Of course these are "STRONG" individuals that ignore the advice of their own leaders and claim that they'd have no problem if their CO was standing by their computer and watching as they "debated" with ones like me, LOL!

    It's such hogwash but they are very adept at dancing around the issue (so what else is new) and not being quite truthful about how the GB actually views the activity!

    This post has a lot of great information I can draw from, and another angle for me to present.

    Thanks again!

    hugs,

    Annie

  • Norm
    Norm

    Hi Annie,

    Thank you for the kind words. It has been a constant source of bewilderment to me that human rights organizations from Amnesty Internatinal and others seem to completely disregard that totalitarian religious organizations don't give a toss about the individual cult members human rights. They seem to care only if these sick cults can't operate freely in various countries in the world.

    As i have been knocking around on the net for about 10 years now i have encountered whatever the WT can throw at me so if there is anyhing you think i can assist you with feel free to make contact.

    Take care,

    Norm

  • LittleToe
    LittleToe

    Hi Norm,

    Great email.

    I'm also glad to see that you got home safely

    Laters,
    Ross.

  • Sunspot
    Sunspot

    **As i have been knocking around on the net for about 10 years now i have encountered whatever the WT can throw at me so if there is anyhing you think i can assist you with feel free to make contact.

    Norm, THANK YOU so much for your kind offer!! I'm so grateful!

    It's so nice to know that I'll have a "pro" to share info with me and that you most likely have a wealth of things on hand to refute the "goofy" doctrines and not-actually-from-the-bible edicts that the WTS likes to hurl around!

    hugs and appreciation,

    Annie.......who has used a LOT of your info already, blush!

  • Norm
    Norm

    Hi there Ross,

    Hello again and thank you. Yes the journy home was quite tranquil, particularly considering the company (Kent). I understand that you had a very exiting journy home with Travis. Did he buy a kilt
    btw? That would fit in nicely with his somewhat savage appearance don't you think? A little blue color in the face wouldn't feel unnatural either. Do you think they make any king size Sporran's for Texans?

    Regards,

    Norm

  • Norm
    Norm

    Aww, thanks Annie,

    I am glad you have found my rants useful. I still have a considerable amount sitting on the HD.
    Use it in any way you feel necessary. I have come to learn that the value of serious well documented information is able to work wonders, and the internet is really great. Once something is out there, it lives it's own life.

    All the best,

    Norm

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