John 3:13

by peacefulpete 6 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • peacefulpete
    peacefulpete

    On other threads it has been shown that Jewish thought of the centuries immediately before and during the forming of the Christian sect included a belief in a soul that survived death to ascend to heaven or paradise if deserving, gehenna if wicked. Some retained the idea of a heavenly Hades as a holding location with many chambers suitable to the person put there (like in the rich man and lazarus story) Re: Re: Why do the JW's not Believe in Hell? for example.

    Often John 3:13 ?no one has ascended to heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.? has been understood as insisting that Jesus was telling Nicodemus that noone had gone to heaven prior to Jesus. Yet oddly Jesus appears to be saying that he alone has ascended to heaven. Commentators are struck by the surprising use of the perfect tense.

    ?The perfect tense ?has ascended? is unexpected.? Morris, The Gospel According to John, 223

    ?The use of the perfect tense is a difficulty, for it seems to imply that the Son of Man has already ascended into heaven.? Raymond Brown, The Gospel According to John, 1:132.

    ?The difficulty of the verse lies in the tense of ?has ascended.? It seems to imply that the Son of Man had already at the moment of speaking ascended into heaven.? C.K. Barrett, The Gospel According to St. John (London: SPCK, 1972), 177.

    So then what was the author of the words at John 3 trying to say? An answer may be found in comparing Jewish and Christian idiom. It appears that ?No one has ascended to heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man, who is in heaven? is a figure of speech indicating a special divine enlightenment. Jesus in the context of verse 13 is revealing his unique understanding of the secrets of life and salvation. Significantly the phrase ?who is in heaven,? at the end of verse 13 which appears in many Greek as well as Latin and Syriac manuscripts, (A [ * ] Q Y 050 Ë 1,13 Ï latt sy c,p,h and late second early 3rd century Hippolytus, Against Hersies of Noetus 1, 1:7 ) indicates that Jesus, while living on earth, was at the same time also ?in heaven".. IOW We are speaking in metaphors. Being in comunication with God could be said to have 'ascended to heaven' to have heard these things. Nicodemus wants to understand "heavenly things" and it is only Jesus who "ascended to heaven" and "is in heaven" who can reveal them. As a side note, the variants and ommission of the closing words in some leading mss, "who is in heaven" posssibly resulted from literalizing the expression and trying to make sense of it in the same way that modern readers usually do.

    Perhaps this is similar to what is meant at Eph 2:6 when it says Christians are ?seated in heavenly places?.

    Similarly, Baruch 3:29 asks: ?Who has gone up to heaven and obtained her [Wisdom] and brought her down from the clouds??

    Adam Clarke commented on this passage:

    This seems to be a figurative expression for ?no one has known the mysteries of the Kingdom,? as in Deuteronomy 30:12 and Romans 10:6; and the expression is found in the generally received maxim that to be perfectly acquainted with the concerns of a place, it is necessary for a person to be on the spot.

    A German expositor, Christian Schoettgen, in his Horae Hebraicae observed of John 3:13: ?It was an expression common among the Jews who often say of Moses that he ascended to heaven and there received a revelation on the institution of divine worship.? He quotes the rabbis as saying, ?It is not in heaven, that you should say, ?Oh that we had one like Moses the prophet of the Lord to ascend into heaven and bring it [the Law] down to us?? (Jerusalem Targum on Deut. 30:12).

    So John 3:13 cannot be used as solid evidence that the author/editors of John denied the commonly believed idea of ancient worthies ascending to heaven. This understanding dovetails well with Jesus' assertion that Abraham Isaac and Jacob were raised and alive to worship God in Mark 12:26,7.

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    I wonder though if there is a notion similar to Wisdom and 1 Enoch, where Wisdom formerly had made Israel her abode and dwelt among the prophets (cf. Wisdom 7:7-30; compare Sirach 1:4-15) but because of Israel's unfaithfulness and iniquity, "Wisdom could not find a place in which she could dwell, but a place was found for her in the heavens ... so Wisdom returned to her place, and she settled permanently among the angels" (1 Enoch 42:1-2). Yet, in view of the promise in Isaiah 11:1-3, Wisdom (and her gifts of righteousness and prophecy) was expected to return in the last days, and thus 1 Enoch mentions that "Wisdom shall be given to the elect" (5:6-9). More specifically, the text mentions the coming of the Son of Man, who "will remove the kings and the mighty ones from their thrones," and offer the holy ones water from "the fountains of Wisdom," that is, "revealing the Wisdom of the Lord of the Spirits to the righteous and the holy ones ... Wisdom will flow like water" (1 Enoch 46:4-5, 48:1-6, 49:1-3).

    Re John 3:13, the passage is distinctly about the revealing of "heavenly things" (v. 12), that is, knowledge that no mere "teacher in Israel" could hardly know (v. 10). Moreover, the same divine title "Son of Man" occurs as in 1 Enoch, and the conception of the Spirit (which in Jewish tradition is equated with heavenly Wisdom) is similarly aquatic, such as the baptism "through water and Spirit" in 3:5, the promise of "living water" in 4:10-14, and the "fountains of living water" described in 7:37-39. The whole message of John, moreover, relates to Jesus as being sent from heaven and revealing the knowledge of the Father, and the imparting of the Spirit to the disciples in 20:22-23. The Logos conception in John 1 is also dependent on the Wisdom tradition. So for these reasons, I mention the significance of the concept in 1 Enoch of Wisdom ascending to the heavens before she again descends to be given to the holy ones.

  • Undaunted Danny
    Undaunted Danny

    Good reads i am happy that there are some 'brain trust' posters here at JWD that are smarter than me.

  • peacefulpete
    peacefulpete

    After reading your post Leolaia, I really don't know what your opinion of the suggested interpretation above is. Though I enjoyed it and found it supplementary. The ascending to descend of wisdom may have some correspondence but I don't think the John story implies Jesus ascended to heaven literally. Tho as my first post suggested he did go there metaphorically.

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    I wasn't referring to the synoptic ascension traditions if that is what you meant....I was only pointing out that in the wisdom tradition, it was believed that divine Wisdom departed from the abode of men and returned to heaven, and within John we have a theology of the Son as the embodiment of the Word who "dwelt among men" and dispensed the Spirit to men. This seems all very germaine to your citation of Baruch 3:29: ?Who has gone up to heaven and obtained her [Wisdom] and brought her down from the clouds?? The descent of the Son brought Wisdom to the earthly domain, whereas Wisdom had formerly dwelt among men but abandoned men to dwell in heaven. The manuscript evidence of the phrase "who is in heaven" is very interesting and undermines a historicist interpretation of the gospel.....I think the metaphorical interpretation is plausible, I was only mentioning another part of the wisdom tradition that explicitly mentions a prior ascension of Wisdom to heaven logically prior to the descent of the Son....

  • LittleToe
    LittleToe

    Leo:
    As always fascinating.

    Just to supplement this with some contemporary Christian thought.
    Some believe that we can attain heaven right now, whilst on earth, by communion with Christ (not to be confused with the Eucharist).

  • peacefulpete
    peacefulpete

    Thanks Leolaia, plausible is all I can hope for.

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