Created to die

by Tashawaa 5 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  Tashawaa

  The Witnesses teach that Jehovah created man to "live forever" in a paradise earth. This was lost to man (I'm not forgetting Eve ) when he ate from the "tree of knowledge of Good and Bad".

  The Watchtower, Oct 15/99 (off the WTBTS Official Site) reads:

  The first man, Adam had the prospect of living forever. His body was designed with the necessary faculties to live and enjoy eternal life. Eternal life was conditional, though. Adam had to collaborate with and be obedient to the Source of his life, his Creator, in order to maintian his life perpetually. - Genesis 1:31, 2:15-17

  Adam chose to disobey the Creator. In effect, Adam claimed that man is better off ruling himself independent of God. Thus he sinned. From that point onward, it was as if his genetic code was altered. Instead of passing on everlasting life as an inheritance to his offspring, Adam transmitted sin and death. - Genesis 3:6,19; Romans 6:23

  I'm not going to deal with the whole account - just the belief that Witnesses have that Jehovah created man to live forever. We were apparently designed that way, and once man disobeyed God, he became imperfect and died. An example of this I've heard used is "like pulling the plug on a fan. You cut off the electrical source and it slowly stops." Since Adam "cut himself off" from his "Life Source" he slowly died.

  So, was God's intention for man to be made physically to live forever? What about the "Tree of Life"? If man had NOT eaten from the "Tree of Knowledge of Good and Bad" would he have died? Well according to Gen 3:22 (*note this isn't a look up scripture in the above) "...and now lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever."

  So his dying wasn't from eating from the tree of Good and Bad, it was FROM NOT eating from the "Tree of Life".

  Adam & Eve were NOT created to live forever. They had to eat from a tree and get either a "magic potion from the fruit" or God would have to tinker with their DNA (once they ate) to EXTEND their already created life-spans.

  The fact they were going to die was only because God wasn't going to let them eat another piece of fruit. They were already dying. They were NOT initially set up to live forever. Raised as a JW, I was taught that eating from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Bad is what caused Adam to "lose his life". That he was somehow genetically altered from eating it, and from that act of eating became imperfect, and slowly started to die. He could have "regained" his life by eating from the Tree of Life.

  YET, the bible says he died because he did not eat from the "Tree of Life". God created him to die!!!! Nothing was "genetically" altered in him. God just allowed him to continue living the life he was originally create with - no extention to it.

  - Please note that I DO NOT BELIEVE the Genesis account to be literal, accurate or even inspired of God, I'm just dealing with a topic that "hit me" compared to what I USE TO believe. -
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  Elsewhere

  Here is something I put together a few years ago that you might like...

  Creation Account #1 (Gen 1:1 ? Gen 2:3)

  1. Heaven and Earth Created. (Gen. 1:1)
  2. Photons (light) were created. (Gen 1:3)
  3. The sky was created. (After the earth was created.) (Gen 1: 6-8)
  4. Land was created (above the water). (Gen 1: 9,10)
  5. Plants begin to grow. (Before the sun exists.) (Gen. 1: 11,12)
  6. The sun, moon and other celestial objects are created. (Created separately from and after ?Light? and after plants begin to grow.) (Gen. 1: 14-18)
  7. Aquatic life, and birds are created. (Gen 1: 20-22)
  8. All other kinds of animals are created (Gen
  9. Humans (Plural - Males and females) are created (Account #2 refers only to one pair of humans until after the man is ejected from the Garden of Eden). They (all of them) are told to have sex and reproduce, also given possession of and told to subdue the earth and all the creatures and plants. (Per Account #2 steps 5, 8, & 9 they are to reside in the Garden of Eden, not throughout the earth ? they are sent out of the garden as punishment.) (Gen 1: 26-30)
  10. Everything is declared to be completed to god?s satisfaction and god rests from all his work. (No mention of the Adam and Eve in account #2) (Gen 2: 1-3)

  Creation Account #2 (Gen 2:4 ? 3:24)

  1. Heaven and earth created. (Gen 2:4)
  2. No plants, no rain, no humans (to be farmers). (Gen 2: 5)
  3. Water has been running out of springs over the earth since the earth was created. (Light and sky not yet created per account #1. Also no mention of the ocean that had to be moved to the side so land could be seen ? a spring is not an ocean.). (Gen 2:6)
  4. One male human made from a pile of dirt. Given life by blowing in his nose. (Man created before plants and animals, not after per account #1 steps 7-9. Also, per account #1 step 9, both men and women are created at the same time. In this account, God later creates the animals in an attempt to create a helper for the man, eventually creating the woman in the attempt, Account #2, steps 10-13) (Gen 2:7)
  5. Garden of Eden planted by god. Man placed in garden. (Gen 2:8)
  6. Plants created in Garden of Eden. Tree of the knowledge of good and evil in middle of garden. (Still no mention of animals being created.) (Gen 2: 9)
  7. Region of described. (Gen 2: 10?14)
  8. Man placed in garden (again) - (Account #2, Step 5). He is to be a farmer. (Gen 2: 15)
  9. Man told he could eat any fruit or plant he wants with the exception of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Told he will die if he eats of the Tree of the knowledge of good and evil. (Gen 2: 16,17)
  10. God decides to create a ?Helper? for the man since it is not good for the man to work (farm) alone. (Gen 2:18)
  11. Animals created so man may evaluate each one as a perspective ?suitable helper?. God brings animals to the man; has man name each animal and evaluate each animal as a perspective ?suitable helper?. The man does not find a ?suitable helper?. (Gen 2: 19, 20)
  12. As a result of failing to find a ?suitable helper?, god puts the man to sleep and a piece of flesh (rib?) is removed and the wound is closed. (Gen: )
  13. God creates a ?woman? using man?s ?spare rib?. Brings the woman to the man just as he brought the animals to the man for evaluation and naming. (Gen 2:22)
  14. Man evaluates it and names it ?woman? (see step 32, account #2), just as he had with the animals. (Gen 2:23)
  15. Man declares that because women and men are separated forms of the same flesh, they are to leave their parents and be ?united? and become ?one flesh? (Oh Baby!) Apparently after evaluation and naming, he decided the ?woman? was a ?suitable helper? ? though not explicitly stated. (Gen 2:24)
  16. Man and ?wife? (new term) both butt naked and not ashamed. (Gen 2:25)
  17. Snakes are described to be craftier than any of the other wild animals. (Gen 3:1)
  18. Snake asks (A talking snake?) woman about her not being able to eat from any tree in the garden. (Gen 3:1)
  19. Woman responds that she can eat fruit from the trees in the garden with the exception of the tree that is in the middle of the garden. Also added that she must not touch the tree (God did not say that, god only said not to eat it ? Account #2, Step 9). One will die if rule(s) is (are) broken. (Gen 3:2,3)
  20. Snake says she will not die. Says that god knows that if she did eat it she will be like god - knowing good and evil. (At this point in time, humans do not know right from wrong, nor are they truly conscious or self-aware ? Account #2, Step 22) (Gen 3:5)
  21. Woman eats and gives some to her ?husband? (new term) who was also there with her; he also eats the fruit. Note: They did not die. (Gen 3: 6)
  22. Man and woman?s eyes opened - come to know good and evil (they did not die ? they became self-aware and came to know the difference between good and evil ? as the snake predicted.). Realized they were naked (and came to the conclusion that being naked is evil) and therefore sewed fig leaves together for coverings. (Gen 3:7)
  23. They hear God walking through the garden and hide. (Gen 3:8)
  24. The omnipotent and all knowing creator of all things (god) can?t find them so he decides to just yell out: ?Where are you?? (Apparently the Garden of Eden is small enough to yell across.) (Gen 3:9)
  25. Man yells back that he is hiding because he is naked. (Gen 3:10)
  26. The omnipotent and all knowing creator of all things (god) doesn?t know how the man came to know that he was naked, so he asks the man if someone else (Who else? Another animal?) told him or whether he had eaten from the tree. (Gen 3: 11)
  27. The man tries to pass the buck and blame the woman for making him eat the fruit. (Gen 3:12)
  28. God confronts the woman who tries to pass the buck and blames the snake for making her eat the fruit. (Gen 3:13)
  29. God says to the snake:

  1. You?re cursed and have to start crawling on your belly (Therefore snakes originally did not crawly on their bellies until this time) and you have to eat dirt for the rest of its life (Snakes eat dirt?).

  2. Woman and you will hate each other. Woman?s children and your children will hate each other.

  3. Man (Adam) will strike your head, and you will bite him in hill (Not a prophecy, just what happens when a man and a snake cross paths). (Gen 3: 14,15)

  1. God says to the Woman:

  1. Will greatly increase your birth pains

  2. Will make you desire your husband

  3. Will have the man rule over you. (Gen 3:16)

  1. God says to the man:

  1. Cursed is the ground because of you.

  2. Painful toil needed to eat from the ground (Account #2 Step 34).

  3. Ground will produce thorns and thistles and you will eat the plants of the field until you die and return to being dirt. (Gen 3: 17-19)

  (Each gets a triple whammy)

  Note:

  1. God said that they would die if they ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

  2. Snake said they would not die, also said that god knew they would come to have the knowledge of good and evil

  3. At no time did god even imply that the humans would live forever if they did not eat the fruit ? Account #2, Step 34).

  4. The humans die several hundred years (Hundred?!) later of natural causes.

  Result of Eating Fruit:

  1. They did not die as a result of eating the fruit (as god claimed).

  2. They did come to have the knowledge of good and evil (as snake claimed).

  Therefore:

  1. God lied

  2. Snake told the truth.

  1. Adam names wife ?Eve? (She did not have a proper name until this time ? see Account #2, steps 13 & 14). (Gen 3:20)
  2. God makes skin clothing for them (Skin?). (Gen 3: 21)
  3. God decides that since the man now knows good and evil, he must not be allowed to eat of the tree of life and live forever (Therefore humans were never meant to live forever. ?Ransom? sacrifice of Jesus is not the only option for living forever, and therefore is not really needed. Humans did not loose the ability to live forever - god prevented them from attaining it.), so god banishes the man from the garden (not eve) and makes him work the ground for food (Account #2 Step 31). (Gen 3:22,23)
  4. God invents the sword (the first instrument of war and destruction mentioned in the bible ? invented by god) and uses it to keep the man (not the woman) out of the Garden of Eden. (Gen 3:24)
  5. And so begins the drama of humans? apparently Cain?s wife was one of the other humans created by god per account #1, step 9.
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  zen nudist

  not long after leaving JWs it occurred to me that the first lie in the bible was not told by the serpent...

  what did the serpent actually say which was a lie?

  many answer that we would become like god[s], but note, that Jehovah says this is true...not a lie.

  that we would not die from eating of the tree.... note that this too was no lie, Adam did not die from eating from the tree, as was rightly pointed out he was not made to live forever and he was simply allowed to live out his days without any divine intervention to prolong them...

  but that made me realize that the first lie was actually told by JEHOVAH.

  in effect he told Adam, if you eat this poison, you will die, and when Adam does eat it, why lookie here, he does NOT die,so God tells his audiance, that he must take steps to prevent Adam from living for ever....and starves him to death by preventing him from eating from a totally different tree.

  or more simply, I tell you, look, if you eat this you will die...you eat it, dont die look at me and I shot you. (^_^)
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  Bubbamar

  So, if they would have eaten from the tree of life instead, they would have lived forever and ever and never known the difference between good and evil and would have never worn clothes?? (Okay - There are uses for clothing other than embarrassment - especially for us females.) Women would be able to pop 8 lb babies out of their tiny vaginas - PAINFREE. Man would not be ruler of woman. There would be no damn thorns or weeds in my garden that would easily produce vegetables. And snakes would continue to talk and walk around on their backs.

  No wonder I didn't want to read the bible for the last 18 years.

  It makes my head swim!

  UGH!!!
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  Elsewhere

  Assuming that there is a god and Satan and all of that... I can't help but wonder who is the real evil one, Jehover or Satan?

  When I read the bible, I see Jehover going around brutally killing tens of thousands of people for not bowing down to him, sacrificing his how son and ordering his people to rape, murder and invade other groups.

  What evil things has Satan done? Have you ever considered the possibility that Satan is the good one and Jehover is the one deceiving the world into serving him, along with making deadly threats against anyone who does not serve him?

  The bible talks about a rebellion in heaven? maybe Jehover re-wrote history to make it look like he was in authority all along, when in reality Jehover was the one to rebel.

  When I look at the actions of Jehover, I see a brutal selfish dictator who kills anyone who gets in his way. Everything I read about Satan doing has to do with granting freewill and encouraging people to find a path that makes them most happy.

  Hell... look at the thread "Satan wants you to have an easy life".
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  Tashawaa

  One male human made from a pile of dirt. Given life by blowing in his nose.

  I've often wondered why the dirt pile didn't get messed up???