Archaeologists discover supposed underground "John the Baptist" cave

by Gopher 9 Replies latest social current

• 

  Gopher

  And I thought the Bible said John baptized people in the Jordan river. Is this group of archaeologists onto something, or are they stretching things to shine a spotlight on their "discovery"?

  http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040816/ap_on_sc/israel_john_the_baptist

  Science - AP AP: Group Discovers John the Baptist Cave Add Science - AP to My Yahoo! By KARIN LAUB, Associated Press Writer KIBBUTZ TZUBA, Israel - Archaeologists said Monday they have found a cave where they believe John the Baptist anointed many of his disciples ? a huge cistern with 28 steps leading to an underground pool of water. AP Photo AP Photo Slideshow: Cave of John the Baptist Possibly Found During an exclusive tour of the cave by The Associated Press, archaeologists presented wall carvings they said tell the story of the fiery New Testament preacher, as well as a stone they believe was used for ceremonial foot washing. They also pulled about 250,000 pottery shards from the cave, the apparent remnants of small water jugs used in baptismal ritual. "John the Baptist, who was just a figure from the Gospels, now comes to life," said British archaeologist Shimon Gibson, who supervised the dig outside Jerusalem. However, others said there was no proof that John the Baptist ever set foot in the cave, about 2 1/2 miles from Ein Kerem, the preacher's hometown and now part of Jerusalem. "Unfortunately, we didn't find any inscriptions," said James Tabor, a religious studies professor at the University of North Carolina at Charlotte. Tabor and his students have participated in the excavations. Both Tabor and Gibson said it was very likely that the wall carvings, including one showing a man with a staff and wearing animal skin, told the story of John the Baptist. The carvings stem from the Byzantine period and apparently were made by monks in the fourth or fifth century. Gibson said he believed the monks commemorated John at a site linked to him by local tradition. Gibson said the carvings, the foot washing stone and other finds, taken together with the proximity of John's hometown, constituted strong circumstantial evidence that the cave was used by John. John, a contemporary of Jesus who also preached a message of redemption, is one of the most important figures in Christianity. The discovery, if confirmed, would be among the most significant breakthroughs for biblical scholars in memory. The cave is on the property of Kibbutz Tzuba, an Israeli communal farm just outside Jerusalem. A member of the kibbutz, Reuven Kalifon, knew of the cave's existence ? the community's nectarine orchards run right up to the mouth of the cave ? but it was filled with soil almost to the ceiling. In 1999, Kalifon asked Gibson to inspect the cave more closely. The archaeologist, who has excavated in the Holy Land for three decades, crawled through the small opening and began removing boulders near the wall of the cave. When he pushed aside one of the stones, he saw a head carved into the wall ? the top of the figure he believes depicts John. Gibson, who heads the Jerusalem Archaeological Field Unit, a private research group, organized an excavation. During the five-year project, he wrote a book, entitled "The Cave of John the Baptist," to be published later this week. Gibson said the cave ? 24 yards long, around four yards wide and four yards deep ? was carved in the Iron Age, somewhere between 800 and 500 B.C., by the Israelites who apparently used it as an immersion pool. "It apparently was adopted by John the Baptist, who wanted a place where he could bring people to undergo their rituals, pertaining to his ideas of baptism," Gibson said. Believers would have walked down 28 stone steps. To their right, they would have discarded their clothes in a niche carved into the wall. At the bottom of the steps, they would have placed the right foot onto a stone with an imprint of a foot. A small depression to the right of the imprint would have contained oil, to be poured over the foot for cleansing, Gibson said.
• 

  Robdar

  I think that they are grasping. I did not see anything in the article that offers evidence that John da Baptist was there. The only fact that makes it possible is that the cave is so close to where he was from.
• 

  Preston

  did they find his secret stash?
• 

  Leolaia

  The carvings date from hundreds of years later. They thus do not constitute anything other than a local tradition that existed at the site in the fourth or fifth century (assuming the dating is accurate). There may be other reasons for considering the historical John the Baptist as having used the pool. But the evidence would seem to be very slender.

  Still, it is interesting to consider the possible implications of the site. The gospel accounts assume that Jesus was baptized in an open river so that the Holy Spirit can descend directly from heaven. If John had in fact generally used a cave pool, that would suggest that the biblical narrative imagines the scene quite differently from what it really was.

  It is unfortunate the site is described in such sensationalistic terms in the article.
• 

  Gopher

  So many religious "artifacts" and findings (such as the Shroud of Turin, supposedly the burial cloth of Christ which has been discredited in the eyes of most researchers) seem to have been created by believers centuries later to artificially prop up the original story.

  Here is a quote from the article that makes believe that about this latest finding:

  They also pulled about 250,000 pottery shards from the cave, the apparent remnants of small water jugs used in baptismal ritual.

  Maybe later, Christians used "small water jugs" in baptism ceremonies. But John was depicted as fully immersing people, dunking them under the water. The Bible doesn't give any hint that he used "small water jugs".

  These archaeologists have found something, but not anything from any first century prophet named John.
• 

  Preston

  Maybe later, Christians used "small water jugs" in baptism ceremonies. But John was depicted as fully immersing people, dunking them under the water. The Bible doesn't give any hint that he used "small water jugs".

  Gopher, everybody knows John the Baptist, or J.B. as he was known in seminary school, had regular keggers over at his pad, also known as ALPHA SIGMA CRAG.
• 

  Satanus

  Probably a reminder from israel to their fundy friends to continue their support of israel's idf crimes against the natives. It reminds me of the 'bone box' of about a yr ago. Expect more 'discoveries' in israel of this nature. I suppose some could be of some value, like the gospel of judas discussed on another thread.

  S
• 

  Leolaia

  Maybe later, Christians used "small water jugs" in baptism ceremonies. But John was depicted as fully immersing people, dunking them under the water. The Bible doesn't give any hint that he used "small water jugs".

  That's a good catch. However, it wasn't "later" that Christians began to sprinkle water instead of having full-body immersions. Both were done in the first century, as the Didache 7:1-3 notes: "Now concerning baptism, baptize as follows: after you have reviewed all these things, baptize in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit in running water. But if you have no running water, then baptize in some other water; and if you are not able to baptize in cold water, then do so in warm. But if you have neither, then pour water on the head three times in the name of the Father and the Son and Holy Spirit." Since the cave pool presumably had enough water for immersion, it would not appear that the water jugs were used for immersion if the procedure in the Didache were followed.

  I would guess the pottery shards can be dated, so it remains to be seen what century they date to.

  Expect more 'discoveries' in israel of this nature. I suppose some could be of some value, like the gospel of judas discussed on another thread.

  The Coptic Gospel of Judas actually surfaced in Egypt, where all the other gnostic gospels have survived. Like the Gospel of Mary, which also surfaced on the antiquities market, it would be next to impossible to successfully fake this find....the parchment or manuscript paper can be carbon-dated, and the ink can likewise be independently tested. It is quite different from the ossuary and other stone-incised inscriptions, where such tests cannot come into play. Plus there's the fact that it's written in an ancient language quite different from modern Coptic.
• 

  Satanus

  Leolaia

  So, the gospel of judas would be out of this category. As i didn't read much of the thread on that, i didn't get the details, which you filled in here. Thanks.

  S
• 

  DaCheech

  My cous' in Italy is John the Baptist (his parents are evangelical and this is their pet pea)!