Politics and religion

by onacruse 9 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • onacruse
    onacruse

    I've often posted that, imo, politics and religion are simply 2 heads on the same Hydra--the Hydra of social interactions, each "head" contributing its own part to the constraints of how we interact with each other.

    I was just talking with a friend, and he pointed out to me a distinction that merits consideration:

    You can walk away from a religion, with the consequent restructuring of your belief-system. But the results of political decisions (taxes, benefits, etc) are forced upon you, nation by nation, and you have no choice (in spite of your vote). The best you could do is to repatriate to a political climate more to your tastes.

    Religion offers you a meaning for life; politics makes you live within a community.

    Opinions?

    Craig

  • dh
    dh

    I think they are both methods of controlling people, and it's like Lenin said;

    "While the State exists, there can be no freedom. When there is freedom there will be no State."

    I think in many ways that statement can be applied to religion as well.

  • stillajwexelder
    stillajwexelder

    You can walk away from a religion, with the consequent restructuring of your belief-system. But the results of political decisions (taxes, benefits, etc) are forced upon you, nation by nation, and you have no choice (in spite of your vote). The best you could do is to repatriate to a political climate more to your tastes.

    Except in Islamic Nations where it is extremely difficult to walk away - it is a capital offense to walk away or apostasize - religion IS politics in the Middle East

  • onacruse
    onacruse

    dh:

    I think they are both methods of controlling people

    I agree, with perhaps a slight rephrasing that "they are both methods of us controlling ourselves."

    Where did all this come from, to begin with? Did some hyper-dimensional being genetically program us in such a way that religion and politics are unavoidable consequences of our mutual existence? Why aren't we all just hermits?

    stilla:

    Except in Islamic Nations where it is extremely difficult to walk away - it is a capital offense to walk away or apostasize - religion IS politics in the Middle East

    Which is exactly why I see politics and religion as symbiotic.

    I sense a cognitive dissonance here, but I can't put my finger on it.

  • Terry
    Terry

    Philosophy is a method of using your intellect to discover what works.

    We are physical creatures. We are finite. Our nature determines our

    method of survival. Our minds are our only means of self-preservation.

    We have to discover what kind of enviornment we thrive in and learn to take the necessary steps to ensure that survival.

    But, if we are to live above the level of mere survival our existence must be improved; we must learn the truth that : NATURE, to be commanded, must be obeyed.

    What does that mean? Unless you understand the objective nature of the real world you cannot mould it to suit your purposes.

    Man must discover the limits and contrive the strategy of surmounting those limits.

    Two thousand years ago a man could not fly. When darkness came he could not see. Great distances could not be quickly traversed. The lights in the sky were speculative visions.

    But, men who used their rational powers seized nature in their own hands. In heroic efforts of will they focused and sifted and abstracted and learned. Men became inventors and discoverers and scientists and tore away the shrouds of ignorance that smothered them in the darkness of lesser animals.

    Mankind, through the efforts of a very few, rose above subsistence and superstition and broke the bonds of gravity to plunge into the dazzling glory of transcendance.

    But, while those thinkers, those philsophers, those rational minds were dragging mankind ever upward toward better lives, healthier bodies and more rational knowledge, others more sinister had their agendas.

    The Greek philsophers ideally discussed the concept of a PHILSOPHER KING who might embody greatness of mind with magnificence of deed on behalf of his nation. Such a ruler would not need the tyrannical sword of death to improve his lot by subjugating others. The Philsopher King would, by dint of empowering progressive advancement and fair judgement, enable mankind to flourish equably.

    This man never materialized!

    Aristotle devoutly tutored the son of Philip of Macedon, the king's son, with the ennobling spirit of knowledge and service. This son grew to be Alexander the Great. His zeal was that of spreading the GREEK ethos throughout the known world. His was a missionary zeal for all things Greek. Anyone who could not speak greek was blubbering gibberish (hence the term: barbarian; mean blubbering gibberish).

    Alexander was great only in that he was an efficient fighting machine. His travels in ancient lands were a mission of destruction to any who opposed his will. True, he spread Greek thought. But, at what price in blood?

    I cite the above example for a reason.

    The ideal is only "ideal" from a certain point of view. Nothing is ideal for everybody. To the non-Greek the ideal of Alexander was a threat to their national identity, their language and their very selves.

    Philosophy works for the individual when a man discovers what his nature is and what it must become. How a man "becomes" cannot be at the cost of others. Religion enters!

    Why should any man follow the rules of others? Who can force a particular behavior? The answer is: God. God is the profound extrapolation of the ideal: All good and all powerful, just and true.

    By insisting there is a mind and a power above all else and signing that god's name to a list of behaviors, the middleman (priest) offers the reason :WHY MUST I OBEY?

    So too with a political ruler. What is legitimate about a ruler that any man should obey him? It must involve POWER and it must involve some claim to transcendant goodness and justness.

    History is a list. The list is paired. On one side we have the names of rulers. On the other side we have the names of priests, prophets, mystics of all kinds. The ruler gains legitimacy from mystic. How?

    The mystic has power over the minds of men. Fear, superstition and a claim to ethical dominance enslave man to the punishment of god or the reward of service in his name.

    The political ruler must use the religious ruler. Parasite and host.

    Parasite: politician/priest Host: mankind

    The engine that drives this false symbiosis is fear and ignorance; power and persuasion.

    Only an individual is truly free. But, even the wisest and mightiest of individuals is but one human being. To accomplish great change the individual must have numbers: co-operative collusion; a multitude of hands and shoulders pushing against obstacles.

    And that is the built-in rub!

    The minute an individual joins forces with others an awful price is paid:

    1.Compromise

    2.Dominance/submission

    3.Obedience

    The failure of politics is the failure of religion is the failure of mankind to achieve the dignity of autonomous action. Thus we become fractions and factions and splinters and sects and cults and chaos.

    Democracy asks permission of those who must obey. The Constitution tells what rights and freedoms an individual possesses and the Bill of Rights protects man from his own government.

    The citizen is free and the government is bound; that is ideal democracy. All men are created equal? How? By this. All men are born human. Our humanity is in our shared nature. We all share the nature that what we NEED to survive and flourish is identical. We cannot escape our human nature. We are all created equal by our humanity. It is our law and our agreement with that law that create us as a people.

    So then, why do we not live in Utopia? Because men must rule men. Because laws are administered by men. Because the advantage to power is greater to the one weilding it than it is to the one to whom it is being dealt.

    Win-win is the ideal. But, power cannot be equalized. A leader is not a leader unless he turns his head behind him and see followers lining up.

    When we win; we lose.

    Hell is other people.

  • dh
    dh
    dh:
    I think they are both methods of controlling people

    I agree, with perhaps a slight rephrasing that "they are both methods of us controlling ourselves."

    ona: yeah the rephrasing is cool, but let's revise it even further!

    'they are both methods employed by some, to control both themselves and others'

    -

    Where did all this come from, to begin with? I have ideas, but none I would say that I believe.

    Did some hyper-dimensional being genetically program us in such a way that religion and politics are unavoidable consequences of our mutual existence? I don't know about that either, but if it did, it made a lot of mistakes, it seems more to me like they stumbled upon a primitive life form and modified it into what we know as humans.

    Why aren't we all just hermits? I think it's because as a rule, people need people, that's what makes us human, we can survive without any interaction with other humans, but then, the value of human life becomes significantly depreciated... 'dehumanised' I think is the word.

    I think the politics of politics, the bickering on the day to day level as is the norm throughout the world, the gossip and backtalking, basically boils down to 'one-up-manship' meaning that the politics is just about ego, who is one up on the next person, this happens in family, right the way through business and into government, and if we believe the bible, even into the heirachy of god, the devil, and their subjects.

    I think that the minute a person can form their own opinion, they will strive to show how their view, or their way is better than someone elses, even if it is only in their own mind. It's comical and sometimes pathetic the lengths people will go, and what's more it kills, but that's fundamentally what the politics side of things boils down to, 'I am better than you, my way is better than yours', and convincing others of this.

    I have friendships that are very political, certain people will not mix with certain other people because of the politics involved in views, lifestyle, religion, caste etc. Lots of politics.

    Having said all of this, I do think that politics is fundamentally a natural thing that is bound to happen when people are around people, I think it happens because we are not clones and because we have pride & ego, and because of this it will always be something that some will use to abuse and/or control others, but again this isdown to the 'one-up-manship' thing, and respect to he who controls, because one way or another, he has got there and we haven't. Whether we approve of the means or not.

    Religion is different in that the people who truly want to be part of a religion, those who convert, have chosen to take on board a set of principles which may be contrary to the ones they would have developed naturally, this is a conscious thing and I think that is what seperates the politics of mankind and the choice of religion.

    People born into a religion are all too often doomed to be clones from the outset.

    Note: I realise you may have meant politics as in government politics when you started the post, but I am throwing it out in a more general sense of the word... like insect politics!

    I feel that the politics was always going to be part of our nature, because it boils down to peoples opinions, but I think the mix only really happens when the religions begin competing with eachother, and within themselves, and contrary to what their religion may tell them, people allow their the nature of 'i'm better than you' to get involved, and that turns into the 'we are better than you' scenario, and once that happened (which it did thousands of years ago) we are in a vicious circle, two very different means to an end where they can do nothing but feed eachother.

    On the one hand we have human nature, people needing people, but when they are around them, it turns into politics.

    On the other hand we have a bunch of people who consciously choose to take on board the principles of a religion/group, and then look down on the rest of mankind, or try to convert them.

    Then you have the individual.

    -

    Those are my thoughts anyway.

  • peacefulpete
    peacefulpete

    Religions don't offer a meaning to life. Many religions belittle life as disposable and illusory. Others preoccupy people with innane ritual and sacrifice effectively rendering their lives meaningless. Meaning comes from valuing life and using it in lasting and constructive ways not allegiance to a religion.

  • onacruse
    onacruse

    Interesting posts ; and after an extended conversation with Earnest, as a corollary to this thread, I'm starting another about "feral children."

    Thanks!

    Craig

  • Simon
    Simon

    Yes, I think people have a choice as to whether religion and beliefs affect whereas politics affects you whether you like it or not. ie. you may not be religion or have any political views - politics is what will affect you though.

    It's interesting though that many treat their political views and part affiliation as a religious thing and react to criticism of it / them as they would to an attack on a faith.

  • bigboi
    bigboi

    For most of human history I'd say that politics and religion were both intertwined. It's only very recently that we've begun to see governments making policy without direct involvement of the religious establishment. However, I don't think this new development is by any means the norm. In many places across the globe, even in this country, religious sentiments of segments of the population make their belief systems powerful brokers in governing.

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