some more thoughts

Yes I know that there is one case where some one was removed from the congregation in the bible for sinning, but Jehovah witness distorted the facts in the matter to meet there own agenda.

1 cor 5:1-5 (NIV)

1It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that does not occur even among pagans: A man has his father's wife. 2And you are proud! Shouldn't you rather have been filled with grief and have put out of your fellowship the man who did this? 3Even though I am not physically present, I am with you in spirit. And I have already passed judgment on the one who did this, just as if I were present. 4When you are assembled in the name of our Lord Jesus and I am with you in spirit, and the power of our Lord Jesus is present, 5hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature[1] may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord.

1 Cor 5:1-5 (MSG)

1I also received a report of scandalous sex within your church family, a kind that wouldn't be tolerated even outside the church: One of your men is sleeping with his stepmother. 2And you're so above it all that it doesn't even faze you! Shouldn't this break your hearts? Shouldn't it bring you to your knees in tears? Shouldn't this person and his conduct be confronted and dealt with? 3I'll tell you what I would do. Even though I'm not there in person, consider me right there with you, because I can fully see what's going on. I'm telling you that this is wrong. You must not simply look the other way and hope it goes away on its own. Bring it out in the open and deal with it in the authority of Jesus our Master. 4Assemble the community--I'll be present in spirit with you and our Master Jesus will be present in power. 5Hold this man's conduct up to public scrutiny. Let him defend it if he can! But if he can't, then out with him! It will be totally devastating to him, of course, and embarrassing to you. But better devastation and embarrassment than damnation. You want him on his feet and forgiven before the Master on the Day of Judgment.

1 COR 5:1-5 (AMP)

1 Corinthians 5

1IT IS actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, impurity of a sort that is condemned and does not occur even among the heathen; for a man has [his own] father's wife. 2And you are proud and arrogant! And you ought rather to mourn (bow in sorrow and in shame) until the person who has done this [shameful] thing is removed from your fellowship and your midst!3As for my attitude, though I am absent [from you] in body, I am present in spirit, and I have already decided and passed judgment, as if actually present,4In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, on the man who has committed such a deed. When you and my own spirit are met together with the power of our Lord Jesus,5You are to deliver this man over to Satan [1] for physical discipline [to destroy carnal lusts which prompted him to incest], that [his] spirit may [yet] be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

What is the sin? It isn?t pre marital sex, but insist.. This man is sleeping with this fathers wife. Who knows of the sin? EVERYONE.. it dose not even raise any eyebrows in the congregation. What do the pagan heathens think of the sin? They as wicked and sinful as they are, would not tolerate it. Why was the man removed? So that he could repent for his sin, and be saved. So this man was removed because he was immoral.

Now look at verse 9.. it says not to associate with sexually immoral people. This is a trick.. Jehovah?s Witness believe that anyone who has sexual relationships outside of marriage is immoral.

1 COR 5:9-11 (NIV)

9I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people-- 10not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral ?.

Now lets ask the question what is immoral? Immoral is defined as ?Contrary to accepted moral principles? Webster?s defines it as ?conflicting with generally or traditionally held moral principles? So immorality is something that conflicts with what is accepted by most people. Is insist immoral? Yes, most people would feel so.. Is having sex with children immoral? Yes, most people would agree. Heck most people would agree that a 65 year old man dating a 19 year old girl is immoral. Is having sex with the woman you have been dating for a few months, but not married immoral? Most people would disagree, if you were of age. Is being a ?Player? and having many sexual partners immoral, most people would agree. Is cheating immoral? Most people think so.. and the ones that don?t, are cheating. So how do we define immoral? Why is our standards so different? When Jesus was asked to judge a woman who deliberately committed adultery, Sexual immorality (John 8 1-11) how did he judge her?. By Law she was to be stoned to death. The society has boldly made the statements that sound like disfellowshiping is required because the law can not be fulfilled.., like in the good old days. Or to as to say ?we are doing this because it is illegal to kill you, so acting like your dead is the next best thing.?

We are not living today among theocratic nations where such members of our fleshly family relationship could be exterminated for apostasy from God and his theocratic organization, as was possible and was ordered in the nation of Israel in the wilderness of Sinai and in the land of Palestine.

Being limited by the laws of the worldly nation in which we live and also by the laws of God through Jesus Christ, we can take action against apostates only to a certain extent, that is, consistent with both sets of laws - Watchtower November 15th 1952

The society feels that dissfellowshiping is a limitation. Now did Christ demand that this woman should be condemned? Remember the Jews wanted her dead, but it was illegal for them to kill her, they were limited by the Roman law. They were hoping that Jesus would say to stone her, and they could wash there hands of her death. But Jesus just sat there writing in the dirt. (Witch was unlawful because it was Sabbath) They persisted and finely Jesus said that who ever was with out sin could throw the first stone. Not one of them there was with out sin, so when they realized that they were all just as guilty as her, for different sins, they left. Did Jesus stone her? She had willfully committed this sin, and it was a habit. There is no evidence that she begged for forgiveness, or even said she was sorry. Today, that would be an open and close case for disfellowshiping. Jesus didn?t limit her punishment to excommunication, but he said that he didn?t even condemn her. Jesus set the example.

Jesus example is against the spirit of the dissfellowshiping that took place in the bible. Remember the man who was removed for incest? Well he was brought back into the congregation after only 6 months, and a letter by Paul rebuking the congregation for taking the punishment too far.

2 Cor 2:5-9 AMP

5But if someone [the one among you who committed incest] has caused [all this] grief and pain, he has caused it not to me, but in some measure, not to put it too severely, [he has distressed] all of you.6For such a one this censure by the majority [which he has received is] sufficient [punishment].7So [instead of further rebuke, now] you should rather turn and [graciously] forgive and comfort and encourage [him], to keep him from being overwhelmed by excessive sorrow and despair.8I therefore beg you to reinstate him in your affections and assure him of your love for him;

What record is there of this man, writing letter after letter, or begging for forgiveness for years? It is safe to say he is no longer committing incest, because verse 5 puts it in the past tents. Another fact is the punishment was carried out by a majority, which would imply that not everyone thought it was fair, and not every one followed through with it. (Where is the record of anyone being punished for that?) Paul also asked that the man be reinstated so that he did not become excessively sorry, and be overwhelmed.

Something I have not seen in any watchtower is that congregation in Corinth was a congregation of extremes. Think about it. First the congregating was ok with a man who openly practiced incest, (an extreme) Paul had to correct them, Let them know this wasn?t ok among the pagans, and that the pagans were looking down on them.. Secondly they took his punishment too far. (An extreme) Paul had to write them again only a few months later, and say ?What are you doing.. he is sorry, he isn?t sinning any more.. Forgive him, you are going to far,? The real lesson here isn?t that we need to punish all sinners as put forth by the watchtower, but that we should not go to extremes.

No one can accuse Jehovah?s Witness of being to lax on SOME sin, but saying they go overboard on the punishment is an understatement. and we are only hard on SOME sin.. Immorality by OUR definition could be heavy petting or touching a woman?s barest. (pay attention to the flock Part5) If we take this stance towards sexual morality then shouldn?t we take a like stance to ?a greedy person, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler.?

If touching a woman?s breast or heavy petting is on par with incest, then a drunkard is anyone who drinks alcohol, an idolater is any one who is a fan of something (Nash car, music, movies) a slanderer is any one who has talked about, or said anything about anyone they didn?t like a swindler can be anyone who works in retail and a greedy person is anyone who lives in America after the 19th century. (because our poor people are filthy rich compared to world standards, and we all just want more, more, more)

Paul go on about sin in the book of Galatians chapter 5 he describes the acts of the sinful nature.

Gal 5:19-21 NIV

?19The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God?

The point here is no one is perfect, Paul included stuff other then sex, Look at jealousy who hasn?t been jealous at one point? Other words for jealousy are resentment, suspicion and distrust. (many elders have these traits) These traits are on par with sexual immorality. What about selfish ambition? Other words for ambition are aspiration, dream, and motivation. Who has never had a goal that only served themselves? Remember that Jesus said that we are slaves to sin? Judging some one for pre marital sex suddenly becomes harder when we realize that we too are screwing up just as bad.

The sins defined here are can be carried over to Galatians 6.

Gal 6:1 NIV

1Brothers, if someone is caught in a sin, you who are spiritual should restore him gently. But watch yourself, or you also may be tempted.

Who isn?t caught in sin, even if we sin willfully we know It is a sin, and after it is all done we feel bad. I personally have done many things, and looked back, hours, weeks or months later and thought, wow, I shouldn?t have done that, it was wrong. Next it says to restore the sinner gently.

If you brake you leg, and end up in the hospital the doctor will administer a pain medication before setting your leg, putting you in a cast, and helping down the road to recovery. Even if you willfully jumped off of the roof of your home, and it is the tenth time he has had to set your leg, he will still help you. He will tell you to stop jumping off of the roof of course, but he will still help, even if you do it again.

What if the body of elders were medical professionals? You stupidly jump off of the roof, and now they need to form a judicial committee. They meet with you are already suspicious, and distrustful of your pleas for help, see you have done it once before, you knew what would happen. They don?t care about your pain, because they told you not to jump off of the roof and you have deliberately and willfully broken your leg. They say the only reason you have ask for there help is because you are in so much pain, and you want to walk again. Instead of pain medication they slap you across the face, and then prepare to amputate your broken leg. You beg, and cry for them not to, but they tell you this for your own benefit, and that you must wear shorts from now on so every one can see that your missing a leg, your pain and missing leg will be a valuable lesson to anyone considering jumping off of there roof, especially because you are not going to be allowed to use crutches. Crutches are for repentant leg breakers, witch clearly you are not. Don?t worry, no one will know why the leg is missing, it is a private matter. They then offer you a ray of hope. The injury is not that bad, so the doctors can lovingly cryogenically freeze your leg. Once you have proved that you are sorry for breaking your leg, they will surgically reattach it to you, allowing you to once again have a full life. All you have to do is run a marathon, in less then five hours?. With out falling down. If you fall down, its no big deal, you just have to start over. They will evenly lovingly allow you to restart the clock.

Who was gentle with there help. Witch doctor would you go to when you have a problem? Some one that will try to set you straight or some one who will cut you off until you prove that you are better, by enduring ridicules hardship. Witch doctor had the spirit of Christ?

This is my issue. I am not saying premarital sex isn?t a sin. It is... but it isn?t exactly gross immorality as the society would have you believe, and no one was ever removed from the congregation in the bible because of it. Jesus didn?t condemn anyone for it, despite having the opportunity. Even perfect angles fell from heaven for sexual relations. How can we argue that we in our imperfect corrupt state, must not sub come to desires that angles have to fight off.

My issue is that we practice disfellowshiping for stupid things? We have to keep the congregation clean. We practice disfellowshiping when we should practice mercy. We disfellowship for being imperfect. We tell people that god will kill them, because they are imperfect and are addicted to cigarettes, or other drugs. We offer no help. We offer no pity. We disfelloship people for being sick. We disfellowship people who where molested when they were 8 years old, because 20 years later they are acting out. We don?t try to help them, we disfellowshiped them. We disfellowship anyone who questions our doctrine. We can even disfellowship someone for what other people did in there presents, people who are not even witness. Other heathen, so called Christian churches try to help there members! They believe you should hate the sin, not the sinner. We think they are stupid for that. We think that not showing mercy, and following the bad example of the Corinthian congregation some how makes us more righteous. What brings more unbelievable hypocrisy to our disfellowshiping policy, is that we brag, and boast about all the court cases we have won regarding religious tolerances, as if this shows we have gods favor, But we do not practice any tolerance what so ever.

When people are disfellowshiped by mistake (and it happens) we say Jehovah was testing them? Come on when is the last time you have know the police to come and arrest some one, hold them in solitary confinement for 6 month or a few years, and then say sorry, it was test. The government was testing you, to see if you were faithful. And that is what dissfellowshiping is, solitary confinement, in public with no limit to the duration of the punishment.

Being reinstated is a matter hard work for the dissfelloshiped, and the personal whim of the committee that dictated that there sin was so bad, god should kill them at Armageddon. (Apparently god doesn?t get to decide, It is up to 3 imperfect sinful men) These men are sometimes hundred of miles away, and have little or no contact with the disfellowshiped, but for some reason get to decide if they are repentant or not. They don?t need to talk to them. They don?t need to see them. Even if local congregation of the disfellowshiped sends a glowing letter of recommendation they can decide to say no, based on there personal preference. I have known people who have literally sent in dozens of letters for reinstatement, and waited years. I have known people who have become so discouraged by the process they have given up. If Jesus were here today, I am sure he would have some big issues with this.

As if this isn?t bad enough, we take our unprecedented hypocrisy to a whole new level with how we treat unbaptized witness. We remove some one from the congregation for premarital sex, some one who begged for forgiveness. Someone who?s punishment is that they are no longer allowed to talk to anyone, or have any friends. They can not attend any congregation functions, There family is even discouraged from talking to them, unless it is urgent family business. They have been cut off. But the unbaptized person who goes to all of the meetings for the last 30 years. Some one who actively and currently beats his wife, is an alcoholic, engages in adultery, drug use, and talks like a sailor. Some one who non-witness will have nothing to do with. But this person is invited to all of the functions?? People can talk to him IN THE CONGERGATION! They are allowed to invite him into there homes! I know he never was baptized, but there is a point, where you are going to an extreme. I know he should be forgiven, no matter how many times he screws up.. and that is only right and fair. BUT SHOULDN?T THE PERSON WHO BEGGED FOR FORGIVNESS for a sin that was committed YEARS ago be allowed the same forgiveness? No the person who only sinned a few times, begged for forgiveness, and is NO LONGER sinning can not be forgiven, because they choose to be baptized when they were 12 years old.

Why do we encourage young children to be baptized? Isn?t that just stupid? I have heard of children 8 years old being baptized.. And they are applauded, like heroes returning from battle. Usually they are disfellowshiped before they are even 18, and then we act surprised. How did it happen? What went wrong? He/She needs to straiten up.. As If they are not going to have an turbulent time as they get older. As if they are never going to get into any sort of trouble just like we didn?t. Ohhh yeah.. we all had trouble too at that age. I don?t know of a single person who I grew up with, that shouldn?t have been disfellowshiped at that age. I knew full time pioneers who smoked pot, and engaged in premarital sex. No I am not talking about my close friends. I am talking about people no one would ever even image. I am talking about the kids who were considered to be the extreme good example. They to the best of my knowledge were never found out. The only difference between a witness in good standing from the time they were baptized at 16, and a disfellowshiped one is getting caught.. I am sure there are one or two witness kids who don?t screw up, who really were good. But they are far and few in-between, and I didn?t know any.

some more thoughts

l3gi0n

blondie

l3gi0n

Share this