What's the big deal?

by MuzicmanCa 7 Replies latest jw friends

  • MuzicmanCa
    MuzicmanCa

    I am just going to play devil's advocate here for a second since I need help reasoning something out again. I think I have the answer, but I just need to do this outloud and hear some responses to make sure I am clear on this particular issue.

    I remember once, when I first came across a lengthy write-up on the faulty reasoning the WTS used to come up with the whole 1914 thing, I was having dinner with an older bro who, at the time, was a very close friend of mine. I asked him directly just how valid the date was and if what I was reading on the internet had any credibility. His answer in short was basically that what all these "apostates" are trying to do is prove that the kingdom of God is not here; that if they can disprove the date then they can prove that Jesus presence is not really here on earth, that Jehovah's work is not really being done; basically that all efforts of the JW's are futile...

    Here is where I think I am stuck. What's the big deal in that? Isn't it the point that if the WTS is holding on for some silly reason such as pride, control, or whatever, to some broken thought, it goes to reason that there must be something else that is being hidden, other doctrine that is being purposefully contaminated or distorted for some unknown purpose(s); that this is an organization, not by the people itself, but by it's very system and structure that cannot be trusted?

    But here's what I don't get. Why DOESN'T the WTS just come out and use the very information that has been presented to disprove 1914, say to the JWs "Hey look guys....FORGET 1914...forget dates all together from now on...that was wrong of us...from now on let's focus on the point of the matter (from their veiwpoint anyway) and just be doing the door to door work..." and so on and so forth. They would still have the donations...the service....all their petty little rules... They can still have their kingdom and make lots of dry magazines to talk about it as they think it is. It just seems to me, that something to that effect would be the smart thing to do...if nothing else, just for the sake of politics...I just don't see what the whole big fight is about. If it's obvious it's wrong, just change it. People are pretty reasonable, I think most of us could understand an honest mistake. But to be a blowhard and hold on to this false premise for this long...I just don't get it. What could possibly motivate someone to be that STUPID!??! It just doesn't make sense to me....

    I dunno...I know this is just one of many issues, but this is just one that is standing out in my mind at the moment...
    Muzicman

  • Roamingfeline
    Roamingfeline

    Hi MuzicManCa,

    I guess what is in my mind, is that the entire religion is based on lies. Lots of them. And control. Megabucks worth. If they admit that the base of the religion was built entirely on shifting sand, and that approx 80% or more of their doctrine is all built on falsehoods, who do you think would stay? And, legally, they would be opening themselves up to billions of dollars in lawsuits, for all the people who have died due to their false prophesying and unbiblical rules, not to mention their gestapo tactics of enforcing those rules.

    RCat

  • Farkel
    Farkel

    MuzicManCa,

    What would you like to know about that fradulent date known as "1914?"

    Do you have the ability to download a hundred megabytes of evidence?

    Farkel

  • MuzicmanCa
    MuzicmanCa

    Farkel...

    I know the evidence is there...I've read it, not all, of course, but enough to know that the proof is there. What I don't understand is the motivation behind mainting the stand that they do...it just seems kinda dumb...

    Muzicman

  • bitter mango
    bitter mango

    but mm, don't you think if they admit to being wrong on this subject their "religion" will crumble because they will be forever pressured to answer to all the other inconsistensies?? maybe the dat 1914 is connected to other shit that they will have to say was an "innocent" mistake.
    i dunno.

    BM

  • tergiversator
    tergiversator

    I think a far more radical change than dropping 1914 would be dropping it with an apology, or even an admission that they ever taught otherwise. Every single time in the past it seem that, if a change is acknowledged, it's blamed on "brothers and sisters who got carried away", and the new scriptural rationalization is the only possible way intelligent people could ever have viewed the subject. (We've always been at war with Eastasia.)

    I think it will be quite instructive as to the potential future survival of the organization when they make their first real apology in connection with a flash of new light. I unfortunately do not think that will be anytime in the near future...

    -T.

  • AlanF
    AlanF

    Hi MuzicmanCa:

    : ... His answer in short was basically that what all these "apostates" are trying to do is prove that the kingdom of God is not here; that if they can disprove the date then they can prove that Jesus presence is not really here on earth, that Jehovah's work is not really being done; basically that all efforts of the JW's are futile...

    Your friend was right, but his comments didn't go nearly far enough. Remember that the Fundamental Doctrine of Jehovah's Witnesses is that JW leaders speak for God, and are to be obeyed and respected the same as God. That doctrine rests squarely on 1914 and the sequence of events that they claim followed, which resulted in their ultimate claim that these leaders were appointed in 1919 to a position of full spiritual authority over all mankind. Thus, without 1914, the whole house of cards falls down.

    Of course, a corollary is that JWs have been preaching about an imaginary kingdom that was not established in 1914. That certainly makes all their preaching as futile as telling people about invisible pink unicorns flying over everyone's head.

    : Here is where I think I am stuck. What's the big deal in that? Isn't it the point that if the WTS is holding on for some silly reason such as pride, control, or whatever, to some broken thought, it goes to reason that there must be something else that is being hidden, other doctrine that is being purposefully contaminated or distorted for some unknown purpose(s); that this is an organization, not by the people itself, but by it's very system and structure that cannot be trusted?

    I'm not sure what you're getting at here. I don't think that the motives of JW leaders are obscure. They're very clear: These men want to rule over others as King-Priests. They want to get a reward. They want adulation now and in the future. That theme is extremely clear in Watchtower literature. Thus, they certainly refuse to correct matters like blood, disfellowshipping, child molestation policy, 1914 and other policies because of the extreme pride they take in having been appointed "over all Christ's belongings." Also, the JW organization has never been "by the people". It has always been ruled from the top. Rutherford reinforced that practice and turned it into doctrine. Finally, you're right that the JW organization can't be trusted. Because the main goal of the leaders is to create a group of people that they think is approved by God so as to gain a reward of life in heaven as King-Priests, and they are willing to sacrifice anything and anyone to get that reward, they will lie and cheat and steal to get where they want to go.

    : But here's what I don't get. Why DOESN'T the WTS just come out and use the very information that has been presented to disprove 1914, say to the JWs "Hey look guys....FORGET 1914...forget dates all together from now on...that was wrong of us...from now on let's focus on the point of the matter (from their veiwpoint anyway) and just be doing the door to door work..." and so on and so forth. They would still have the donations...the service....all their petty little rules... They can still have their kingdom and make lots of dry magazines to talk about it as they think it is. It just seems to me, that something to that effect would be the smart thing to do...if nothing else, just for the sake of politics...I just don't see what the whole big fight is about. If it's obvious it's wrong, just change it. People are pretty reasonable, I think most of us could understand an honest mistake. But to be a blowhard and hold on to this false premise for this long...I just don't get it. What could possibly motivate someone to be that STUPID!??! It just doesn't make sense to me....

    The opportunity for such change is long past. Now, if such a change were to be made, a large fraction of JWs would realize that they've been lied to and they'd leave. Since top WTS leaders really do believe that "the end" is right around the corner, it wouldn't do to have a massive loss of membership right on the brink of the time when they would like to hear from their claimed Master, "well done, good and faithful slave." So they hang on and hang on, hoping for Armageddon to come and save them from their folly.

    It's like with the blood policy. In the past several years there has been a great deal of pressure brought on the Society through articles in medical journals, adverse publicity on the Internet, and through governments, to change the blood policy to something reasonable. The events of the last year indicate to many observers the Society is not willing to change. Apparently what they're doing is waiting for blood substitutes to become common, things like Hemopure which is essentially concentrated red blood cells from cow blood. They seem to be hoping that within a few years, such blood substitutes will make the Society's prohibition on blood moot. That would mean that outside criticism would stop, needless deaths from the insane policy would stop, and JW leaders would be off the hook. They would no longer be accused of holding a death-dealing policy and they would not have to own up to the mistakes of the past. The policy would simply cease to be mentioned, and in perhaps 20 years would barely be remembered. And of course, there is the strong expectation that Armageddon will come along and render all the controversy moot anyway. Either way, they figure, by hanging on, they win.

    The other part of why they don't change the 1914 doctrine amounts to pure pride. They and their predecessors have been promoting this doctrine, or a similar one, for 120 years. It has served their interests well. Why take a chance on making asses of themselves, like Rutherford admitted to having done after the 1925 debacle, and lose face before the entire JW community? They had the opportunity years ago to gradually make some changes, but again pride got in the way. Today the most respected JWs outside Bethel are those older folks now in their 60s through 80s, people who sacrificed a lot and worked like hell for Watchtower interests. Today these people are wondering what the hell went wrong. Why didn't Armageddon come as planned and prevent them from growing old in "this old system"? Why have JW leaders given them false hopes? This is a powder keg. Given that a large fraction of these older folks are hanging on more because of inertia than anything else, an admission that the fundamental underpinning of the "faithful and discreet slave" doctrine is wrong would be devastating. There'd be massive hemorrhaging of membership. The Master could say, "What did you do with my valuable coins, you stupid and unfaithful slave?" So fear plays a big role, I think, in the decisions of JW leaders. Fear of punishment, fear of losing a reward, fear of losing face.

    I hope this has given you some food for thought.

    AlanF

  • gsark
    gsark

    Why don't they just say 'oops, we were wrong, sorry?" Because the 'True' religion wouldn't be wrong, it's hard to find a scriptural example if there even is any. The closest I could find to 'misunderstanding' prophecy was Sarah, when she was told she would have a child at like 90 years of age. She handed her maidservant over to Abraham (who didn't protest much if at all) and seemed to feel that was what was meant. She was corrected in very short order and that was the end of it. Or rather the beginning (of Isaac)! And I suppose the first-century Christians really wanted the end to come as soon as possible, (sound familiar) but they didn't make a whole big bunch o'money from it, I am sure. Business is business after all.

    By this all will know that you are my disciples, if you have love among yourselves.

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