Jim Penton makes a lot of sense.

by Schizm 6 Replies latest jw friends

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  Schizm

  The Real Issue

  Posted by JimPenton on Sat - Nov 13 - 06:59am:
  
  I know James is away, but this is not just for him. However, I want to take up something he said. He argued that human sin was responsible for the many evils that I pointed out about Catholicism, and he held that the Church was still doing Christ's bidding. My contention is, of course, that it is not. Why? Simply because from the time of Constantine, the Church of Rome and Orthodox Churches as well have been part and parcel of this world and have thereby denied the central teaching of Christianity: the love ethic. And the same has been true of magesterial Protestantism since the Reformation.

  Without exception the great churches have become entangled with secular states that have waged war with one another. Thus Catholic has killed Catholic, Lutheran has killed Lutheran, Anglican has killed Anglican, Presbyterian has killed Presbyterian, and on and on. Mormons went to Germany, converted many Germans and went to war against the very people (Yanks) who had brought them their religion. They were more Nazi than most Nazis. And one cannot argue that this was simply a matter of members of these churches not obeying what their churches taught. All of the great churches have taught that war and the killing of other humans is right and proper, and so have most of the sects. Augustine came up with the just war theory which was a clear break from the position of primitive Christianity. And James, who likes to quote the Fathers ad absurdum, must know this very well.

  Christ said his kingdom was not of this world, but Catholics, Orthodox, main-line Protestants and most sectarians are down in the muck of politics and nationalism killing one another and others--often in the name of Christ. Hence I would argue that they are not in any true sense Christians.

  JP

  And again:

  Posted by JimPenton on Sat - Nov 13 - 6:05pm:
  
  In Reply to: Re: The Real Issue posted by vinoverita on Sat - Nov 13 - 11:31am:
  
  Hi James,

  Dear James,

  You have missed the import of what I have said. Whether you are willing to admit it or not, the Church has become part and parcel of the world as we know it. Did not the Church lead in initiating the crusades against the Muslims? Did not the Church initiate the the crusade against the Albigensians? Did not the Church establish the Inquisition? And how can the Church wink at Catholics killing Catholics in war after war? How does driving a bayonet throught some Christian brother's guts or bombing his family to a bloody pulp express the love of Christ? And how does such a practice fit in with Romans 13:1-7 in any way? Come on James, you were closer to Christianity when you were a JW.

  Since you will be away for a few days I will not attempt to deal with all the points you have made. but when you return I will go over your last email point by point.

  Jim

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  czarofmischief

  The idea that Christians cannot participate in war is a false one. The decision to join an army or not to join an army, to join a war or not to join a war, is always down to the individual. Draft or no draft, penalty or no penalty, the decision of whether or not to fight is always down to an individual. A christian has to make the decision based on his christian conscience.

  The blunt facts of history show us that there are things worth fighting for. There are things worth more than another person's life. Even the Dubs hope for a war to save them - Armageddon. Therefore, some Christians, indeed, many, decide to join an army for a worthy cause and then wage the war as professionally, humanely, and justly as possible. There are just wars. Led by propoganda, or human frailty, we may indeed wind up with a situation where English Catholics kill German Catholics.

  How can the Catholic church "wink" at this? Simple. The Catholic church does not attempt to gain the solid mind control over the individual that the WT does. The Church, once home of the Inquisition and the Pogrom, actually demurs to the individual conscience in this matter. Although in larger terms, it has come out against the dogma of a pre-emptive war. Anyway - the individual conscience is not the province of the Church. How to wage a just war is not a question open to bishops, rather, it is the province of Christian soldiers.

  CZAR
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  Satanus

  Jesus was never antiwar. He blessed the centurion. He didn't mind having a few weapons on hand.

  S
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  Satanus

  Another fact to remember, is that earth is just a springboard for christians before they bounce off to their eternal heavenly thrones. If their few yrs on this earthly abode are reduced even further, is that not helping them get home sooner?

  S
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  Double Edge

  If their few yrs on this earthly abode are reduced even further, is that not helping them get home sooner?

  hmmm, if only it were that simple.
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  Amazing1914

  I debated Jim Penton on the issue of Christians participating in war at the NW Conference in Wenatchee, Washington, October 21st, 2004. We conducted the dabate for 3 hours, including taking questions from the audience. What forum did Jim make his comments? Was it Channel C? If so, I will go there and add some comments. - Jim Whitney

  PS: I found Jim Penton's posts on Channel C. I think that it would be good to post Vinoverita's (James) rebuttal comments. He too makes good sense, and brings balence to to Jim's views. I understand and to some extent agree with Jim Penton on this ... but, the view he holds ignores some issues which are not easily reconciled. Jim W.
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  Satanus

  Double edge

  If only. Looking back accros a thousand generations that have passed before us, their times on the earth are mostly unknown to us, and seemingly dissappeared. Our lives are everything to us now, but soon will not even be a memory, all efforts gone to dust, simplified back to atoms.

  S