JW's view on patriotism

by c.dawn 9 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  c.dawn

  Hi,

  My sister is a JW . I studied with the Witnesses at the same time as she but I questioned too many of thier belkifs that didn't make sence to me so they gave up on me.

  My Christian church does allow Patriotism. We feel God gave us this land( America) and are forever grateful to him. Yoiu don't know how many people I have met( including my husband from communist or third world countries that tell me how blessed we are.) That someone above (God)bestowed a great gift on us to allow us ride so high as we have, in blessings and prosperity. The middle class here live as kings compared to their countries and our poor are miles ahead of the poor in their countries. Our poor lives better then their middle class. So, we do sing patriotic songs occasionally in services. God bless America, etc. as long as it doesn't over ride our faith or allegiance to God. meaning. Gods comes first in all matters. But, we know that God did allow the Israelites to be have pride for their country

  They were allowed to have national celebrations as long as they didn't come from paganism.

  I know JW's don't salute the flag. I can understand that. But, my sisters total lack of care or concern for this country bothers me. ( she was born on the 4th of July too) .If I talk, in any kind of affectionate tone about this country. How grateful I am to have grown up here and not in a country where women are practically like slaves. Where there is no freedom etc, her face literally curls up in dislike. She did it again when I saw her after Thnaksgiving.. I was talking about how Thankful I was to be born here. And how I feel God gave us this land. And her lip curled up in disgust and she said something to the effect, "I don't even care about the fact I'm a citizen. America means nothing to me. . All countries mean nothing to me. I just happen to have been born here.

  "I don't spend time thinking about being an American she said." I have no loyalty to this county or any, " Only to God."

  She seems to think you can't love your country and God at the same time..That if you love your country you must not care much about God.

  And I was thinking. "My nephew is in a foreign land. Risking his life to make sure you, and your "of age" sons still have the right to put down this country, that has given you so much".

  Is this the belief and attitude of most JW's. Their disdain and dislike of any pride or grateful ness for their country? They must abhor it or they are being disloyal to God?

  Please
• 

  logansrun

  JWs tend to hold contradictory views when it comes to government. On one level they say they are neutral. On another level they view the governement as being directly or indirectly controlled by the Devil, so they therefore view it as wicked. On another level they are told to respect the government and have even engaged in some "cozying up" to governmental agencies (the US Supreme Court, the United Nations). A lot of cognitive dissonance.
  

  As for God "giving" people America -- well, if you believe that God ordained a bunch of white settlers to ruthlessly invade, kill and otherwise subjugate millions of Indians then that's your business. If you believe God backed American aggression in Indochina and imperialism in South America (as well as slavery at home) that's your perogative.

  I think it's a nutty idea, but that's just me.

  B.
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  jwbloodline

  that falls under showing devotion to a nation instead of to god.

  exodus: 20-1-5

  read that scripture and tell me what your heart tells you about being patriotic to your country
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  c.dawn

  Actually, I said I believe God did give us this country because he promised Abraham, for not with holding his only son from him, that he would give his seed ( his future decendants) a nation that they would settle into and that it would be a young nation but that it would rise to greatness wealth and power in a very short time. Historians have traced many of the lost tribes of Israel to what was to become known as free countries and on into England and the US .

  Also, any ancient historian can tell you that not even the Holy Roman Empire, or Solomon , in all their riches and glory,ever rose to the height of wealth and power that the Unites States had. No other nation, even to this day even to this day can take that claim.That's historical facts, not bragging.

  As far as conquering nations. This might sond harsh, but God did allow Israelites to go through antions and drive out or overcome the inhabitants. You'll ahve to take that up wtih him. His creation, his lands. he can do what he wnated with it.

  Do I think he condoned slavery? No. He allowed it for a time, because man stopped listening to him and wanted to do it their own way. And their own way was owning slaves.By the way, in many Middle Eastern countries slavery is still legal and openly practiced.

  Countries were importing and exporting slaves LONG before the US was settled.And they were still dojng it long after slavery was abolished in the late 1880's in America. Slavery was still legal in Saudi Arabia until 1961 and only became outlawed because Kenndy harranged them about it. It's still practiced, although more discreet. Same goes for the Sudan.

  As far as what happened to the native Americans. My opinion is there is a great sadness there.They really respected the land and only took what they needed from it. On the other hand, many nations were hell bent on settling the land what was later to become the United States of America,and it was going to happen regardless who did it.

  Who's to say that if say, Saudi Arabia had setled the US that they wouldn't still be enslaving native Americans today.

  (I know the Saudi's weren't trying to settle the land). But many aggressive nations were, who thought nothing of owning slaves.

  SOMEBODY was going to settle that land and it wasn't going to go too well for the native anyway you looked at it.

  But, you know in some foreign countries, the "natives" of that country are still considered low class and mistreated.

  Whos to say it wouldn't be much worse for the Native Americans if say, Germany or France owned this country.

  Black slavery in US? I think it was horrible. Being sold like possessions. Your kids sold in front of you. It was an evil, but the evil did have some good of an outcome as ironic as that might sound. .Black peoples ancestors sacrificed and suffered and now they have a better life for it. I've talked to many black friends who say they would NOT want to be living in Africa, or the Sudan right now, where they could very well STILL be sold into slavery.That they hate the way they ended up being in the US, but yet still glad they DID end up here. I don't know of many blacks in my town planning on making a mass exodus to Africa. I'd like to go ona trip there, but my black friends have said, "Hell no, give me Hawaii"

  Instead of talking about how agressive we Americans are. maybe give us some credit for the agressions we stopped. For coming to the aid of people who called out to us for help. We aren't perfect. We made some bad decisons for sure, But don't make us out to be all evil and agressive and out to overtake the world. That was Hitlers dream, not ours.

  As I re-call France had their hand in some of the Indo china conflicts before we did.

  But, no one remembers that. It's now the "IN" thing to only remember what we have done wrong. Or what people percieve we have done wrong

  BY the way, I'm German American and have relatives in Germany. Don't know a single one of them who is mad at the US for "agressively" stopping Hitler.
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  c.dawn

  I've never bowed down to my nation. I said I love it. I love God more then I love my country. I love God over my own children. But , that doesn't stopping me from loving them. I call being in a religious cult. (Jehovahs Witnesses) like my sister, who knows they have changed their prophesies more often then Kerry has changed his mind on issues. And will not question one thing she is told, although Gods aid to prove all things and not just what the head of an organisation tells you. THAT'S what I call idol worship.
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  zen nudist

  one of the things I liked and still admire of JWs is their lack of patriotism.

  before I was-- CONvi N c ED --that JWs were the right religion, It seemed to me a real universal god would not have

  one particular nation or family as his only ones...that any group claiming to represent such a being would have

  to have transcended such gorilla like tribalisms and clan loyalities.... now free of the BORG collective, I still

  see value in transcending team loyalites, my country right or wrong BS.... I find no merit in such views as

  my country love it or leave it.

  as to the US, I find its strength is in its ideal of allow people to pursue their own happiness, which is despite the government, not because of it. the US government was originally set up with people who did not trust government and did not want anyone to trust it...those who believe in patriotism are the enemies of this concept.
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  M.J.

  I'm as patriotic as the next guy, but if you want to reach out to your sister you really ought to temper your expressions to her on this. IMHO, you are dogmatically asserting a lot of things that are extra-Biblical, or based on conjecture beyond the direct testimony of scripture--the very thing JWs are accused of doing. In my opinion, the best we can do is acknowledge that our founding fathers for the most part were God-fearing men yet were still human. Their dedication to high ideals produced a government which "governs least", taking into account the inherent evils of government and establishing an extremely fair form of rule (by human standards). This "hands off" approach has allowed the country to flourish, but this should not be interpreted as Americans being more in God's favor than other people of this earth. Anyway, my suggestion is steer clear of the subject...
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  Kenneson

  Jehovah's Witnesses have replaced patriotism with exclusiveness. Is that any better?
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  Phil

  The idea that says America was given to the people of America is ludicrous. America is a new country and we will have our day in history. Give it time. All members of the human race will eventually go through some sort of misery given time. God gave us what we have to do with what we will. Unfortunately, at this stage in the history of we humans, there are too many undesirables around that make life miserable. God does not control our day to day life. Don't be fooled by the religions proliferating the earth at this time. Life will improve with time. We will not see the results of our efforts to make this a peaceful place to life. To all those who are not satisfied with the status quo, make the best of what you have available. Good things are available on earth. If you are licated in an area that is unsatisfactory to you, get out and get into an area that is more suited to your thinking and above do what you can to improve the space in which you live. Be happy, things are not as bad as they seem.
  
  
  
  
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  Preston

  I truly think your sister WOULD care if she lived somewhere else. What I've learned is nothing is worth your peace of mind if handed the possibility of living in ... oh, let's say Beirut, or some parts of India where anyone would be subjected to performing every single aspect of their religious worship under the harshist of circumstances. I think JW's in general are taught to take for granted their government, they'll never fully comprehend these words:

  "People sleep peaceably at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
  - George Orwell

  As much as JW's point their fingers at their government as a controlled-by-Satan entity, they better thank all of the people are willing to put their lives on the line to keep them safe.