We had Bethelite visitors last night

by ozziepost 7 Replies latest jw friends

  • ozziepost
    ozziepost

    We had a lovely meal and conversation, but then the conversation turned to Rome, which is a city all of us had visited not too long ago.

    We spoke about the sights as you normally do, the Vatican, St Peters Bassilica, the Sistene Chapel, and so on. But then I mentioned the catacombs. I am impressed by the sheer size of the catacombs. Just one contains the burial places of half a million Christians. Other catacombs, although smaller, contain hundreds of thousands of graves.

    I remarked that provides JWs with a dilemma. Just how many Christians died there? Apparently much more than 144,000. I related what the Watchtower has stated in the past about the catacombs. (You may recall I posted about this topic several weeks ago.)

    The Watchtower magazine in 1957 ran an article “Testimony of the Catacombs” which included three main sub-headings “Places of Refuge”, “Reflection of Christian Belief”, and “Apostasy”. It stated that “this mode of burial (in catacombs) was adopted by the Christian community, many of whom had themselves been Jews……In some instances those who became Christians opened their property to the use of others of the Christian faith.” The article then states that “prominent (Christian) martyr(s) (were) buried there”.

    The catacombs became places of refuge for, as the article states,

    “During times of severe persecution the endless dark corridors of the catacombs provided places of refuge from the Romans. Because of the Roman feeling of veneration for their dead, places of burial were relatively safe from invasion, even by irate persecutors, and were even protected by law. While the catacombs were not constructed for refuge, but rather for burial, they served both purposes. Even congregational assemblies could be held there with a measure of security.”

    Do the catacombs contain the resting places of ‘true Christians’? The article states:

    “Do the catacombs with their religious art shed light on other Christian beliefs? Yes, indeed, and they witness that much of the present-day dogma of Christendom was not adhered to by early Christians. For example, there were no venerated crucifixes. Even the cross is rarely found.”
    “And would we expect it otherwise when the Christians abhorred the idolatrous practices of their pagan neighbors? In fact, this total lack of idols and relics among the Christians is what gave rise to the charge of atheism lodged against them by the Roman world.”
    “Prominent among both early and later paintings in the catacombs are the repeated portrayals of scenes from all parts of the Bible. “One cannot look upon these expressive memorials of the earliest Christian art without being convinced that the Church of the first three centuries was not only thoroughly familiar with the Scriptures, and that it completed its collection of the canon at a very early date, but that its mind was imbued with an intense love of the Bible and a perception of an acquaintance with every part as a necessity for every class of believers. . . . The very catacomb rises as a witness against the intentional and continued hiding of the word of God from the people.”—History of the Christian Church, by Hurst.”

    The article seems to indicate that the apostasy arrived much later:

    “Although it has been noted that the catacombs provided places of refuge and assembly during times of persecution, it is now apparent that they did not fall into disuse when the persecution let up. There was a return to the catacombs as places of worship when the persecution ended, but this time for a worship quite different from that practiced by the earlier Christians.”

    In more recent times the WTBTS has published a different slant on the catacombs (Awake! 1995 August 8, pages 16-20 “The Catacombs-What Were They?”) This article gives the impression that very few ‘true Christians’ were buried in the catacombs.

    “It appears that during the first century, Roman Christians did not possess their own cemeteries but buried their dead alongside pagans. Halfway through the second century, when professed Christians had already begun to be influenced by pagan thought, wealthy converts made property available for “Christian” cemeteries.”

    And how old are the catacombs? According to the article: “The oldest go back to the middle of the second century C.E., and the most recent to about 400 C.E.” With regard to inscriptions found there, the article states: “Clearly, the “faithful” in Rome were no longer acting in harmony with the knowledge transmitted by Jesus’ true disciples.’

    And to ensure that the point has been made, the article re-states this with: “Can these be the remains of true Christianity? Hardly.”

    OK so that is the Watchtower view. "Yes", my visitors said, "The catacombs don't contain the remains or burial places of true Christians. After all only those who had their hands laid on them by the apostles were of the anointed."

    I was surprised at this. Not official teaching, is it? But there was more!

    "Many may not have been of the anointed. They could have had the earthly hope". OK, I was stunned!

    We talked through both their statements but they were adament. Funny how we were trying to explain Watchtower teachings to Bethelites!

    No matter that Witnesses believe that the heavenly hope was held out till 1935. No, that didn't seem to faze them.

    This got Mrs Ozzie and I thinking about the mindset of Witnesses and that we must have shared at one time. As Mrs Ozzie said to me this morning, "They start with a teaching, then try and make everything fit to the teaching, instead of vice versa. In this case the teaching is the number 144,000. Then they have to counter reasonings with bald statements. It doesn't matter how bizarre. The teaching is the thing.

    As a postscript to this, if the Christians over the centuries were rejected by God and not accepted as anointed heirs with Jesus because of their teaching erroneous thoughts, until the enlightenment of Russell, then how come the Bible Students qualified as members of the 144,000? They followed teachings that are very different to what the modern-day Witnesses believe.

    All in all a bemusing evening!

    Cheers,
    Ozzie

    "So often, the unpolished
    the disjointed
    Is on its way to the truth
    Ahead of the finished
    the polished."

    Ken Walsh, Sometimes I Weep

  • TweetieBird
    TweetieBird

    Very, very interesting.

    Good points, all of them.

    Thanks for sharing.

    It's funny how when you are a mindless drone, you don't dare think about these things. Then when the blinders come off, it's like, how did I not see it?

    Everyday, I ask myself how I could have believed it all without question.

  • TD
    TD

    Hello Ozzie,

    Interesting information about the catacombs. Thanks for sharing

    Speaking of your Bethelite visitors, you said

    No matter that Witnesses believe that the heavenly hope was held out till 1935. No, that didn't seem to faze them.

    The Society's stance doesn't allow for this type of squirming.

    Here is one among several examples that could be cited:

    "Their being called to heavenly life was not because they were somehow better than all the servants of God who had died before Pentecost of 33 C.E. (Matt. 11:11) Rather, Jehovah now had begun to select those who would be associate rulers with Jesus Christ. For some 19 centuries after this there was only one calling, the heavenly one. It was an undeserved kindness that God bestowed on a limited number in furtherance of his own wise and loving purposes.—Eph. 2:8-10."
    (United In Worship of the Only True God, 1983, p. 111, emphasis mine)

    There is a practical reason for this stance, which hasn't received a lot of attention lately:

    “Especially beginning in 1935, when the identity of the “great multitude,” or “great crowd,” was clearly understood, large numbers of these began to manifest themselves..….God’s infallible Word depicts this group as ‘coming out of the great tribulation,’ being survivors of it, living right on into God’s New Order without ever having to die. (Revelation 7:9, 10, 14; John 11:26) The early members of this group are now in their 60’s or 70’s or older. Jehovah did not allow the ingathering of this group to begin too soon. The “great crowd,” including many of the earliest members thereof, will survive into the “new earth.”"
    (Survival Into a New Earth, 1984, p. 185)

    Incredible how ignorant Witnesses are of their own teachings.

    Tom

  • VeniceIT
    VeniceIT

    Hey Ozzie,

    I see your still mixing it up with the best of them hahah!!!

    Thanks for those points. We were in the catacombs a few years back
    and i remember wondering about those things, how many had died?
    why they weren't all annointed, how there could still be so many left.

    I was one of those that didn't belive half of those who partook were announted, they were always the odd balls too in our hall anyway.

    Man it's amazing how messed up we got everything hahah ohh well!!

    Ven

    "I'm not a Troll I'm NOT!!!'

  • Billygoat
    Billygoat

    Ven,

    I'd never thought about that point you just made! All the anointed ones that I knew in my congregation were pretty strange too! I mean - really strange! One lady made her 4 cats sit at the dining room table to eat dinner with her. And she prayed before she served them. I was very young and thought it rather humorous, but strange none-the-less. I remember asking her how she knew she was anointed. She said she knew she was anointed just like she knew she was a woman. She was THAT confident! Weird...

    Billygoat

  • Maximus
    Maximus

    ::They start with a teaching, then try and make everything fit to the teaching, instead of vice versa.

    Exactly so. From the beginning. The easiest way to err: start with the conclusion instead of the facts, the presupposition, buttressed with whatever badly chosen quotations or scriptures or illustrations.

    I've dubbed it the Procrustean bed theology. Remember Procrustes, with the ill-fitting bed? He fixed things very nicely, by lopping off the limbs of his guests so they could fit the bed.

    Maximus

  • DannyBear
    DannyBear

    Max,

    Laughing? at Procrustes. Reminds me of a brother you may well remember, he lived in the Chowchilla area. He was 7'6" or more as I recall. My aunt and uncle were missionaries in Equador, and good friends of this giant. I remember visiting him as a youth. I was really taken with this man. A giant yet as meek and mild as they come.

    He showed us how he had adapt many features of his home, to accomodate his height. His bed was special ordered, custom made.

    Watchtower mental giants have adapted their beds, to accomodate their long noses, for 120yrs....unlike Jappeto, none of the creator's have had the guts, to stop the lie's.

    Danny

    of the Crusty class, but still have all limbs in tact.

  • MacHislopp
    MacHislopp

    Hello Ozziepost,

    Interesting experioence.

    Btw did you like Rome? Do you plan to go for an other trip?
    After all you could be a guest at the Bethel…!

    Greetings, J.C.MacHislopp

    P.S. ..it is only a joke!

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