I need advice about my studies with JWs

by jaffacake 7 Replies latest jw friends

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  jaffacake

  Hit my first real hurdle studying with an elder. I couldn't accept Acts 15 as a basis for a Governing Body. Instead of studying the chapter I was diverted to the FDS, the 144,000. I couldn't see any link with the little flock. Nor could I see a link with the anointed. Nor could I see anything to suggest the New Covenant only applied to this small number. We adjourned at this point and will return to the 144,000 next week.

  Next week we may look at Kings or Priests in heaven to prove the link between anointed Christians and the 144,000.

  I'm unsure about who are the anointed, and whether the Bible is for them or for all. Or are all Christians anointed?

  What scriptures (or watchtowers) should I use to discuss with this guy next week?
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  tetrapod.sapien

  hi jaffacake,

  i see that you are a senior member here, so i will not with-hold my advice:

  IMHO, don't bother looking up any articles or scriptures. tell him not to bother you anymore, and close the door. this board is full of people who are emotionally and spiritually damaged as a result of coming into the org at a vulnerable time in their life. again, IMHO, don't let yourself go there.

  tetrapod.sapien
• 

  Eyebrow2

  You know, the only other thing I can think of that FDS stands for is Femine Deoderant Spray. I think that FDS has more value than the JW Faithful and Discreet Slave.

  I think the bible is for anyone that wants it. Jesus pretty much got rid of the elitist classes when he founded christianity, but later follows like Paul and others quickly started adding a few things to create different classes. That is my opinion any way. (Not to slam good ol' Paul here, I do admire many of his letters, but I think no matter what happened on the road to Damascus, he still wasn't as humble as they make him out to be).

  When I was an active witness, I really believed that the FDS was really guiding us, and all the magazine articles and such were just guides to the bible. Later though, I realized that many of these actually were used to create the JW doctrine, not just help explain it. the JWs have always bragged about how they don't have a religious clergy like other religions....total BS. If that were the case, there would be no FDS, and they wouldn't be afraid of sitting down and actually studying the bible itself, instead of just reading a few scriptures read out of context to support the book they read on bookstudy night.
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  lonelysheep

  I couldn't accept Acts 15 as a basis for a Governing Body.

  That's because there is no basis for it. If you want to believe there is, then you just have to accept what he has to say even though it cannot be proven.
  From their bible:
  Acts 15: 2 But when there had occurred no little dissension and disputing by Paul and Bar´na·bas with them, they arranged for Paul and Bar´na·bas and some others of them to go up to the apostles and older men in Jerusalem regarding this dispute.
  4 On arriving in Jerusalem they were kindly received by the congregation and the apostles and the older men, and they recounted the many things God had done by means of them.

  So, this is a self-proclamation that god is doing things through them today. This is exactly what we were taught to believe. Twisting of the scripture to suit them. I don't consider those "spiritually mature" to be older. But they take the meaning of older men to mean those in position of authority...their GB. And because they went up to the apostles and older men, you are supposed to go to the gb, or elders or whoever and expect them to work things out and have the answer to your questions. They are still men.

  Instead of studying the chapter I was diverted to the FDS, the 144,000.

  Diverted...exactly. Skate around it long enough...go in circles, eventually your mind is in a mild state of confustion and prime for brainwashing. Ready to accept what they have to say.

  I couldn't see any link with the little flock. Nor could I see a link with the anointed. Nor could I see anything to suggest the New Covenant only applied to this small number. We adjourned at this point and will return to the 144,000 next week

  There is no link. It's whatever they tell you and twist the scriptures in order to get you to believe as you're supposed to.

  tell him not to bother you anymore, and close the door.

  Agreed 100%.
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  ezekiel3

  While researching this subject I thought you might be interested in the latest word from the GB about the GB.
  
  Let me know when you find the scriptual basis for the highlighted section below.
  
  From Organized to Accomplish Jehovah's Will (OD Book) Chapter 3, pages 17, 18:

  ---

  
  THE ROLE OF THE GOVERNING BODY
  
  "The faithful and discreet slave" seeks to preserve unity and makes it possible organizationally for 'all things to take place decently and by arrangement.' (1 Cor. 14:40) To accomplish this in the first century, a group of anointed Christians from among the faithful and discreet slave class were chosen as its representatives. As such, they did not consult with all anointed elders in the world before making decisions. From their position in the Jerusalem congregation, they served as a governing body for the entire anointed Christian congregation.
  
  From Pentecost 33 C.E. onward, the faithful apostles of the Lord Jesus Christ took the lead in providing direction for the newly founded Christian congregation. (Acts 4:33, 35, 37; 5:18, 29) By about the year 49 C.E., this governing body had been enlarged to include more than Jesus' apostles. When the circumcision issue was decided, that body included "the apostles and older men in Jerusalem." (Acts 15:1, 2) It was their responsibility to consider matters affecting Christians everywhere. They sent out letters and decrees, all of which strengthened the congregations and made it possible for the disciples to remain united in thought and action. The congregations followed the direction of the governing body, and as a result, they received Jehovah's blessing and prospered.-Acts 8:1,14,15; 15:22-31; 16:4, 5.
  
  The value of such an arrangement is evident today. The anointed ones making up the present-day Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses have decades of faithful service and theocratic experience behind them. They offer spiritual direction to Jehovah's people, as did the first-century governing body. The Governing Body also continues to carry the responsibility of overseeing the preaching work, producing Bible study material, and arranging for the appointment of overseers to serve in various capacities in the organization. These are some of the Kingdom interests of Christ that are being cared for today. Like the early Christians, we gladly look to spiritually mature men for Bible-based direction and guidance in matters of worship.
  
  As was true in the first century, the Governing Body today is made up of imperfect men. However, Jehovah has used imperfect humans in the past to accomplish his will. He instructed Noah to build an ark and to preach about the coming destruction of his day. (Gen. 6:13, 14, 22; 2 Pet. 2:5) Moses was appointed to lead Jehovah's people out of Egypt. (Ex. 3:10) Imperfect men were inspired to write the Bible. (2 Tim. 3:16; 2 Pet. 1:21) Jehovah's use of imperfect men today to direct the preaching and disciple-making work does not weaken our confidence in God's organization. Rather, we are strengthened because we know that without Jehovah's backing, the Governing Body could never accomplish all that they do.
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  Gadget

  IMHO, don't let yourself go there.

  Don't worry about that, Jaffacake knows the 'truth about the truth' and has got very good reasons for doing what he's doing. Its a pity more don't do it.

  As for the question, I think the point the elder is trying to make is that in the 1st century there were 'older men' who were held in esteem and gave guidance and made decisions about things. Acts 15: 2 But when there had occurred no little dissension and disputing by Paul and Bar´na·bas with them, they arranged for Paul and Bar´na·bas and some others of them to go up to the apostles and older men in Jerusalem regarding this dispute. So today there is also a group of older men who give guidance and make decisions and these are known as the Governing Body.

  If I remember rightly the annointed are 'the little flock' who are the 144,000 who have the heavenly calling as appose to the great crowd who will live on earth in the new system. If the annointed have been chosen by Jehovah to rule with him in heaven then it makes sense that these would also be in the best position to rule on earth before being called to heaven, and hence the connection that the governing body is only made up of the annointed.

  How's the whole situation going? Remember that no matter how much fun it may be to argue with elders all of this will be in vain if the elder cancells your study and so you lose the oppurtunity for your main goal? IMHO, I would recommend dropping this issue and agreeing with him. Don't forget, give me a call anytime if you want anymore information.
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  jaffacake

  Thanks for advice so far. He knew I was right about Council of Jerusalem so when he switced topics I just let him.

  I mentioned how Christ told Saul to go to Damascus (not Jerusalem to coordinate work with that Body). Or in Galatians 1:16,17 where Paul says - I did not go into conference with flesh and blood. Neither did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me, but I went off into Arabia.

  3 yrs later Paul went to Jerusalem for just 15 days where h saw only Peter and James. He didn't go on missionary journeys from Jerusalem, but sent by the Antioch congregation. He only went to Jerusalem 14 years later because of a revelation. He went to resolve trouble caused by men FROM Jerusalem. The Jerusalem Council was a one off , for a specific purpose & found compromise between Christian Jew & Christian gentiles.

  Only after 200 years or so did the clergy use Acts 15 to claim Apostilic authority, which churches and organisations have done ever since.

  I'm less sure about the 144,000 and the anointed, so I'll do some research before next week. Its been too easy so far, he must be gonna hit me with some scriptural evidence soon. When he mentioned the little flock & other crowd, I said - oh you mean when Jesus spoke of the Jewish Disciples he was addressing & referred to Gentile believers as other sheep. The guy just went quiet and turned to Revelation.
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  TheListener

  Sounds like things are going well so far. Just don't let on that you know more than you should. The JW must always feel that they are superior in knowledge or they'll cancel the study. He may begin to along other brothers or sisters (one at a time of course) who he feels will be able to communicate with you more effectively or who he feels are more knowledgeable about specific subjects than he himself is. Remember also that after each lesson (at some point) he is going home and pulling up his CD rom to study each thing over so as to use the most convincing arguments with you next week. We should get you a copy of the CD rom if you don't have it already.

  Before any discussion about the witnesses with my family or friends I try to bone up on the CD so I can be ready for each argument they make. It's kind of funny, because they only make the arguements found in the literature and never come up with new ones themselves.

  Ps. I did the research thing before each shepherding call or judicial meeting as well. I never had an original thought either.