I know one of the reasons some people got involved with the dubs was because they expected to see perfect justice in the new system.
The problem I had with this was in order for there to be perfect judgment/justice there would have to be a resurrection and god would have to pay back every person who ever lived tit for tat for every conceivable thing ever done!
This would make him the most petty god around. For example, this would mean that if I stepped on somebody's foot deliberately somebody would have to step on mine (and so on). This all sounds rather stupid. What I figured was that in those days we would be so happy we would not remember what happened and/or because we had a perfect body, mind we would not care. The problem with this is that there would really be no paying back. Something else would be going on, a substitution.
I just have a problem with the whole concept. It seems unbelievable and unworkable.
Did you believe there would ever really be justice or real judgment?
by LongHairGal 8 Replies latest jw experiences
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LongHairGal
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tijkmo
this is interesting because i had this very conversation with someone earlier today...
the ironic thing is that there is no need for perfect justice in a perfect world
so hoping for justice at that point in the future is not helpful
lets say i had borrowed $500 off you and now i was in a position to pay it back and you desperately needed it because you were destitute and the money would get you back on your feet...but i told you well im not going to repay you because in paradise there will not be the need for money
so you have to steal just to survive for which you get destroyed at the big A....and i get destroyed for being a lying cheating piece of scum........but that isnt justice for you.....
justice is pointless in the future when what we need is justice now
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DHL
I have to admit that the vision of a perfect world and an accordingly perfect justice ist quite enticing. To be able to fix everything "properly" sounds fabulous. But it's irrational. We don't (and imho will never) live in a perfect world and therefore don't have perfect justice. This is another one of cult teachings that paint the world black and white not allowing any grey shadows. Real life isn't fair. It's not either right or wrong. Instead life offers many options. I struggle with this every now and then. A part of me wants perfect justice, too. But the rational part of me tells me I won't get it. I have to live with the irregularities. This seems to be sad but it also offers the freedom to be relative. Because in a perfect world with perfect justice you would have to be perfect, too. Otherwise you wouldn't fit in. And I don't want to be perfect because that's boring.
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upside/down
One thing to remember according to Dub theology... is that death erases Adamic sin. Your account is paid in FULL.
What if though...
Urriah decides NOT to forgive David for what he did to him after they are both ressurected?
All the victims of all the crimes of the world don't want to forgive (freewill?) those that inflicted harm or loss on them or their loved ones?
Or what about the classic (JW sitch) where an adulterous mate runs off with the kids and starts a new life and deprives the innocent mate of the joy of raising HIS /HER family that they deserve and the encroacher gets to... and the adulters "come back into da troof" and live happily ever after, while the jilted mate lives in depression and anger (without their kids) and hates "God" and "His people" for the obvious hypocrisy they live by... how do you fix that?
Etc. etc.
u/d (of the is justice possible class)
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LongHairGal
Upside/Down:
Good point. As far as Adamic death wiping the slate clean, I think this belief accounts for why certain dubs think they can get away with ANYTHING and be forgiven.
All this belief does is enable them to be more unaccountable than they already are because after all if they die nothing matters. Right? This always bothered me and I think this is at the heart of why many bad things happen there.
I don't want to hear any of this crap about being imperfect. And their statement of "Jehovah will judge, etc." used to make me sick too. -
upside/down
Yeah.... "Jehovah will judge..."....
They always seem to forget their Bible says He starts with THEM! and their so-called "Lord" said woe to any who cause stumbling... and something about a millstone being tied around their neck and tossed in the sea....
That doesn't apply to "worldly" people.... only DUBS!
u/d (of the gonna buy stock in a millstone company class)
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Terry
THE INSTITUTES OF JUSTINIAN (given by the Roman emperor Justinian) is a compilation of all the Roman Law. A quote:
JUSTICE is the earnest and constant will to render every man his due."
I say it this way, "you earn it; you deserve it".
Or, put still another way, IF you get what you deserve (having earned it) that is justice.
With that in mind....
1.Original sin: we didn't earn it. At most, Adam earned it by his intent and action.
2.Belief in Jesus and the ransom: depends entirely on how our minds are conditioned to accept the "proof" from text. Further, depends on how well it is explained. Were we born Buddhist or Islamic; there is little chance this messege would appeal to our minds, conditioned as they were from infancy. If we were born (as 5 billion were) into a Communist ethos, then, hardly any of this messege would be encountered in our lifetime. Half the entire world, you see, has never even made a single telephone call.
3.What purpose is served by God holding a grudge against the offspring of Adam and Eve? Really, all the problems mankind has experienced are due to God holding a grudge and then, offering a way to break the binding efffect. It is HIS grudge, after all. A good CEO of any corporation would do an immediate intervention that isolated the problem, identified the cause and implemented the policy change that ended the destructive practice that affected business. God, on the other hand, has had thusands of years to work on this problem. He has done, it is rumoured, "something" that will eventually change things. But, little evidence for that is actually visible.
JUSTICE, as it applies to God, is backwards.
Mankind is not born innocent; but, guilty for an act they never committed. Justice?
A person who is innocent of any wrongdoing is selected to suffer the consequences of an act committed by somebody else entirely. Justice?
The persons (mankind) who are said to be UNDESERVING of this "kindness" are given it anyway in violation of the very standard said to be upheld by the giver, God. (i.e. Undeserved kindness is not deserved; so, to grant it is UNjust because it isn't earned.) Justice? or....nonsense?
Doesn't this really sound like what it is----nonsense posing as ancient wisdom?
You are the only real judge of yourself. That is why you have a mind. You make choices and the consequences reveal the wisdom or depravity of the choice. All die anyway. It is the quality of the life you live that determines JUSTICE (allowing for chance and chaos) because cause and effect reward good choices and punish bad ones.
Wisdom is knowing this and making it work without resorting to invisible people in the sky.
Terry
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LongHairGal
Terry:
I agree with you. I got tired of hearing how we are all paying for what Adam and Eve did. I also got tired of hearing about how sinful we all are. I know we are sinful. But it is not as though I had perfection and gave it up. No. I never had it to begin with. All this soul searching made me feel it was almost impossible to love a god with standards like this. Respect for the beauty of the earth I have but I would be lying if I said I actually loved god.
LHG
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