by OldSoul 9 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
If I have convictions, but I turn out to be wrong, were my convictions according to accurate knowledge?
Can knowledge be "accurate" and "wrong" at the same time?
Can knowledge be "pure, unadulterated, unblemished" and "flawed, imperfect, mistaken" at the same time?
Curious to hear a discussion or some posts on this thought.
Respectfully,
OldSoul
If I have conviction, but I turn out to be wrong, was my convictions according to accurate knowledge?
What, is something accurate because you believe it is accurate? Well, testing it in the real world should demonstrate its accuracy, won't it?
Can knowledge be "accurate" and "wrong" at the same time?
Knowledge/facts can be accurate/correct but if applied improperly or to the wrong situation may not bring about the result you intend.
Can knowledge be "pure, unadulterated, unblemished" and "flawed, imperfect, mistaken" at the same time?
See #2 above.
Blondie,
In answer to your response: No way. Obviously. I agree with your assessment, and ditto that.
In my opinion, anyway.
Respectfully,
OldSoul
OS,
I like your questions.
For me Convictions are ones decisions or beliefs that can use accurate truths to support wrong doings.
Misuse of accuracy, using accuracy to support wrong ideas.
Knowledge can be pure, unadulterated, unblemished and still be imperfect and mistaken if used in or for situations it is not intended for or applied to the wrong issue.
"There are no contradictions in the world. When you meet a contradiction, check your premises, one of them is bound to be incorrect." Atlas Shrugged by Ayn Rand
Some things are perfect in theory, but impractical in the real world.
Take for example the black and white view of objectivism, wherein it is said that if you erradicate every subjective thought and bring it back to raw objectivism, you will make better decisions. In the real world it's distinctly impossible, even though it sounds like a great idea. You will have, at best, something that is only slightly tainted by your own biases and previous experience - and will likely not even know it!!!
I'd like to see Terry's reply to that one
Let's try another one, that is more aligned with the JW world - that of pacifism. I clearly recall the day a Bible Study, a man whom I was quite fond of, by this time, objective to the JW view of war and declared me a pacifist. I argued, unsatisfactorily even by my own standards, that we were not.
Would the world genuinely be a better place if everyone thought like the JWs on this? It just aint gonna happen - the theory sounds perfect, but the reallity has been with us since before the story of "Cain and Abel" was penned.
How much force is reasonable? Hoe far wide does "community responsibility" to prote ct the lives of your loved ones go? Do you limit it to just your househould and immediate family? The next door neighbour, or woman down the street who's being attacked by a young unarmed thug? Or would you defend anyone in/on your street, village, city, county, State, country, continent, world?
I have the conviction that I wouldn't like to take a life, however this is held dichotomously with a potentially more powerful conviction to "do my duty" for loved ones, friends and neighbour - after all, who really is my neighbour?!!!
LT: who really is my neighbour?!!!
Silly! It's all the Samaritans that help you in life. ( Talk about missing the point of a parable!)
I think Terry already admitted that while he gravitates toward the ideals of objectivism, he appreciates the impossibility of eliminating subjective thought.
When I asked my questions, I had in mind such JW themes as have been troubling me recently. This trouble takes the form of questioning about why I am no longer am convinced of __________ (fill in the blank). There is, of course, no desire to understand why I no longer hold those convictions. There is only desire to help me hold them again. But the reasoning, such as it is, takes an awkward form so clumsy that even the questioners cannot seem to support their questions without getting uncomfortable and a little aggressive.
I will provide one example, but there have been many over the last few months:
"Even if you don't have confidence in the Organization, I don't see why you have to leave source of good spiritual food. The meetings are where we are fed until Jehovah tells us otherwise."
Let's examine from the viewpoint of Jehovah's Witnesses. In this context, "Organization" refers to the leadership of the organization or the source of teachings. In other contexts, "Organization" can refer to the world-wide association of brothers, it can refer to the earthly system by which Jehovah is accomplishing his purposes today, or it can refer to both the heavenly and earthly organizations working in unison to accomplish those purposes. It can be either perfect or imperfect, depending on whether you are talking about the structure or the people who make it up.
Now, on its face the argument is ludicrous. If the "source of good spiritual food" is the Organization and the source of the content of the meetings is the Organization, it stands to reason that if one has lost confidence in the Organization they have likewise lost confidence in the Organization as a source of good spiritual food. If Jehovah speaks through an Organization in which one no longer has confidence, would one have confidence that this Organization truly speaks for Jehovah?
Obvious, I know. But I thought it may help some to be able to peruse why I have stopped attending meetings and stopped going in field service. It has nothing to do with hating the people, I no longer have confidence that the Organization speaks for Jehovah so I detach myself from it as though it has plague (and fleas).
Respectfully,
OldSoul
I like your questions
I liked it too but thought you were seeking legal advice. Aeriously thogh haven't we all at sincrere convictions that proved to be erroneous?
Fairmind,
Yes. Most of us here have had convictions that turned out to be erroneous. Not everyone has though, only those willing to admit they may be wrong.
Once you know your conviction is misplaced, where should you go away to? In my opinion, the answer is obviously, "Somewhere else!" And if that new conviction turns out to be misplaced the answer would be the same. But it takes humility to recognize you might have a wrong conviction. Paul said the Jews had a zeal, but it was not according to accurate knowledge. Can knowledge be accurate if it is wrong?
Would one of the trumpet blasts point to 1925 as the end of this world incorrectly? If the source of the information is God, would the talk and publication have pointed to the next five or six years as the time of trouble? Would the Organization have prophesied that God was going to heal everyone's ills shortly if they were really spirit-directed? Or would such lies prove them to be false prophets? The answers, for me, are clear. In my opinion, a false prophet does not become a true prophet.
{Matthew 7:15-20} 15"Be on the watch for the false prophets that come to YOU in sheep's covering, but inside they are ravenous wolves. 16 By their fruits YOU will recognize them. Never do people gather grapes from thorns or figs from thistles, do they? 17 Likewise every good tree produces fine fruit, but every rotten tree produces worthless fruit; 18 a good tree cannot bear worthless fruit, neither can a rotten tree produce fine fruit. 19 Every tree not producing fine fruit gets cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Really, then, by their fruits YOU will recognize those [men].
{Matthew 24:9-14} 9 "Then people will deliver YOU up to tribulation and will kill YOU, and YOU will be objects of hatred by all the nations on account of my name. 10 Then, also, many will be stumbled and will betray one another and will hate one another. 11 And many false prophets will arise and mislead many; 12 and because of the increasing of lawlessness the love of the greater number will cool off. 13 But he that has endured to the end is the one that will be saved. 14 And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come.
{Matthew 24:23-28} 23 "Then if anyone says to YOU, 'Look! Here is the Christ,' or, 'There!' do not believe it. 24 For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will give great signs and wonders so as to mislead, if possible, even the chosen ones. 25 Look! I have forewarned YOU. 26 Therefore, if people say to YOU, 'Look! He is in the wilderness,' do not go out; 'Look! He is in the inner chambers,' do not believe it. 27 For just as the lightning comes out of eastern parts and shines over to western parts, so the presence of the Son of man will be. 28 Wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.
{Mark 13:21-23} 21 "Then, too, if anyone says to YOU, 'See! Here is the Christ,' 'See! There he is,' do not believe [it]. 22 For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will give signs and wonders to lead astray, if possible, the chosen ones. 23 YOU, then, watch out; I have told YOU all things beforehand.
{Luke 6:26} 26 "Woe, whenever all men speak well of YOU, for things like these are what their forefathers did to the false prophets.
{2 Peter 2:1-3} However, there also came to be false prophets among the people, as there will also be false teachers among YOU. These very ones will quietly bring in destructive sects and will disown even the owner that bought them, bringing speedy destruction upon themselves. 2 Furthermore, many will follow their acts of loose conduct, and on account of these the way of the truth will be spoken of abusively. 3 Also, with covetousness they will exploit YOU with counterfeit words. But as for them, the judgment from of old is not moving slowly, and the destruction of them is not slumbering.
{1 John 4:1} Beloved ones, do not believe every inspired expression, but test the inspired expressions to see whether they originate with God, because many false prophets have gone forth into the world.
{2 Corinthians 11:12-15} 12 Now what I am doing I will still do, that I may cut off the pretext from those who are wanting a pretext for being found equal to us in the office of which they boast. 13 For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder, for Satan himself keeps transforming himself into an angel of light. 15 It is therefore nothing great if his ministers also keep transforming themselves into ministers of righteousness. But their end shall be according to their works.
{Galatians 2:1-5} Then after fourteen years I again went up to Jerusalem with Bar´na·bas, taking also Titus along with me. 2 But I went up as a result of a revelation. And I laid before them the good news which I am preaching among the nations, privately, however, before those who were outstanding men, for fear that somehow I was running or had run in vain. 3 Nevertheless, not even Titus, who was with me, was compelled to be circumcised, although he was a Greek. 4 But because of the false brothers brought in quietly, who sneaked in to spy upon our freedom which we have in union with Christ Jesus, that they might completely enslave us-- 5 to these we did not yield by way of submission, no, not for an hour, in order that the truth of the good news might continue with YOU.
I'm not making application of a single one of these Scriptures. But it seems to me that if the "Anointed" in 1918 were glorious ones, then Jesus and the early disciples were speaking abusively of them -- even calling them false prophets deserving of destruction. How could they beat their fellow slaves in that manner?
Respectfully,
OldSoul
