2520 years or 7 yeras?

by adversary 9 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • adversary
    adversary

    i recently had a question about whether jerusalem fell to babylon in 607bce or 587bce. there were good arguments for both dates. i began to study daniel 4, and have a new question. here is the gist of nebuchadnezzar's dream: daniel 4:10 “‘Now the visions of my head upon my bed I happened to be beholding, and, look! a tree in the midst of the earth, the height of which was immense. 11 The tree grew up and became strong, and its very height finally reached the heavens, and it was visible to the extremity of the whole earth."...13 “‘I continued beholding in the visions of my head upon my bed, and, look! a watcher, even a holy one, coming down from the heavens themselves. 14 He was calling out loudly, and this is what he was saying: “CHOP the tree down, and cut off its boughs. SHAKE off its foliage, and scatter its fruitage. Let the beast flee from under it, and the birds from its boughs. 15 However, LEAVE its rootstock itself in the earth, even with a banding of iron and of copper, among the grass of the field; and with the dew of the heavens let it be wet, and with the beast let its portion be among the vegetation of the earth. 16 Let its heart be changed from that of mankind, and let the heart of a beast be given to it, and let "seven times" pass over it. 17 By the decree of watchers the thing is, and [by] the saying of holy ones the request is, to the intent that people living may know that the Most High is Ruler in the kingdom of mankind and that to the one whom he wants to, he gives it and he sets up over it even the lowliest one of mankind....19 “At that time Daniel himself, whose name is Bel·te·shaz´zar, was astonished for a moment, and his very thoughts began to frighten him.

    “The king was answering and saying, ‘O Bel·te·shaz´zar, do not let the dream and the interpretation themselves frighten you.’

    “Bel·te·shaz´zar was answering and saying, ‘O my lord, may the dream [apply] to those hating you, and its interpretation to your adversaries.

    20 “‘The tree that you beheld, that grew great and became strong and the height of which finally reached the heavens and which was visible to all the earth, 21 and the foliage of which was fair, and the fruit of which was abundant, and on which there was food for all; under which the beasts of the field would dwell, and on the boughs of which the birds of the heavens would reside, 22 it is you, O king,” because you have grown great and become strong, and your grandeur has grown great and reached to the heavens, and your rulership to the extremity of the earth.23 “‘And because the king beheld a watcher, even a holy one, coming down from the heavens, who was also saying: “CHOP the tree down, and RUIN it. However, LEAVE its rootstock itself in the earth, but with a banding of iron and of copper, among the grass of the field, and with the dew of the heavens let it become wet, and with the beasts of the field let its portion be until seven times themselves pass over it,” 24 this is the interpretation, O king, and the decree of the Most High is that which must befall my lord the king. 25 And you they will be driving away from men, and with the beasts of the field your dwelling will come to be, and the vegetation is what they will give even to you to eat just like bulls; and with the dew of the heavens you yourself will be getting wet, and seven times themselves will pass over you, until you know that the Most High is Ruler in the kingdom of mankind, and that to the one whom he wants to he gives it....28 All this befell Neb·u·chad·nez´zar the king. 29 At the end of twelve lunar months he happened to be walking upon the royal palace of Babylon

    33 At that moment the word itself was fulfilled upon Neb·u·chad·nez´zar

    , and from mankind he was being driven away, and vegetation he began to eat just like bulls, and with the dew of the heavens his own body got to be wet, until his very hair grew long just like eagles’ [feathers] and his nails like birds’ [claws].

    34 “And at the end of the days

    I, Neb·u·chad·nez´zar, lifted up to the heavens my eyes, and my own understanding began to return to me; and I blessed the Most High himself, and the One living to time indefinite I praised and glorified, because his rulership is a rulership to time indefinite and his kingdom is for generation after generation. 35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are being considered as merely nothing, and he is doing according to his own will among the army of the heavens and the inhabitants of the earth. And there exists no one that can check his hand or that can say to him, ‘What have you been doing?’

    36 “At the same time my understanding itself began to return to me, and for the dignity of my kingdom my majesty and my brightness themselves began to return to me; and for me even my high royal officers and my grandees began eagerly searching, and I was reestablished upon my own kingdom, and greatness extraordinary was added to me.

    The key points are:

    The prophecy is:

    . 16 Let its heart be changed from that of mankind, and let the heart of a beast be given to it, and let seven times pass over it.

    Daniel’s interpretation:

    24 this is the interpretation, O king, and the decree of the Most High is that which must befall my lord the king. 25 And you they will be driving away from men, and with the beasts of the field your dwelling will come to be, and the vegetation is what they will give even to you to eat just like bulls; and with the dew of the heavens you yourself will be getting wet, and seven times themselves will pass over you, until you know that the Most High is Ruler in the kingdom of mankind, and that to the one whom he wants to he gives it.

    Prophecy fulfilled 12 months later:

    28 All this befell Neb·u·chad·nez´zar the king.

    29

    At the end of twelve lunar months he happened to be walking upon the royal palace of Babylon….33 At that moment the word itself was fulfilled upon Neb·u·chad·nez´zar, and from mankind he was being driven away, and vegetation he began to eat just like bulls, and with the dew of the heavens his own body got to be wet, until his very hair grew long just like eagles’ [feathers] and his nails like birds’ [claws].

    34

    “And at the end of the days I, Neb·u·chad·nez´zar, lifted up to the heavens my eyes, and my own understanding began to return to me; and I blessed the Most High himself, and the One living to time indefinite I praised and glorified, because his rulership is a rulership to time indefinite and his kingdom is for generation after generation.

    The scriptures clearly indicate that the prophecy was fulfilled 12 months after daniel interpretated it.

    I think that one of the most persistent hermeneutical sins is to put two interpretations on one passage of scripture, breaking the force of the literal meaning and obscuring the word of Jehovah. So I started doing some research on where the 2520 years interpretation of the seven times came from and who originated it.

    Here is a quote from e.b.elliot in his book “horae apocalyptical” 3 rd edition, 1847 c.e.,vol 3, p 233. “….for the first four centuries the days mentioned in daniel’s and the apocalyptic prophecies respecting the antichrist were interpretated literally as days, not as years, by the fathers of the christian church.”

    Joachim of floris (c.1130-1202 c.e.}, a catholic priest, was probably the first christian expositor to apply the year-day principle to the longer periods of daniel and revalation.this was pointed out by charles maitlandm in his book”the apostles school of prophetic interpration” 1849c.e., pp.37,38.

    During the following centuries innumerable dates were fixed for the second advent, most of them built on the year-day principle.

    The first expositor known to have arrived at a period of 2520 years was john aquilla brown in 1823 c.e.

    His time period was:604bce-1917ce. Other expositors and the year they published their interpretation and the time period involved are:william miller, in 1842ce, 677bce-1843ce; e. bickersteth, in 1850, 727bce-1793ce and 602bce-1918ce; n.h. barbour, in 1875, 606bce-1914ce; c.t. russell, in1876, 606bce-1914ce.

    When I was a member in the “churches of christ” the interpretation of daniel 4 was a literal one, fulfilled one year after the dream, and we accepted the fall of Jerusalem ay 587bce. No other interpretations were applied to daniel 4. Then I met the Jehovah’s witnesses and they introduced me to the 2520 day-year interpretation starting at 607bce and ending at 1914ce. At first I thought this was really cool and embraced it, but now im not so sure. Any help would be appreciated…thanks…ron

  • sinis
    sinis

    Great post. Very simple really. Just use the bible, no hokus pokus. A simple way of looking at this is to just turn to Zechariah 7 :

    1 And it came to pass in the fourth year of king Darius, that the word of the LORD came unto Zechariah in the fourth day of the ninth month, even in Chisleu;

    2 When they had sent unto the house of God Sherezer and Regemmelech, and their men, to pray before the LORD,

    3 And to speak unto the priests which were in the house of the LORD of hosts, and to the prophets, saying, Should I weep in the fifth month, separating myself, as I have done these so many years?

    4 Then came the word of the LORD of hosts unto me, saying,

    5 Speak unto all the people of the land, and to the priests, saying, When ye fasted and mourned in the fifth and seventh month, even those seventy years, did ye at all fast unto me, even to me?

    4th year of Darius rule was in 517 (ascention year was 521). So in this month it was seventy years of fulfillment. So, 517 + 70 = 587. Hope that helps.

  • peacefulpete
    peacefulpete

    This subject is discussed here often. Simply put the WT founders inherited the idea that Daniel 4 had secret meaning from the Millerites from the early/mid 1800s. Itw as part of a craze of the time to imagine all sorts of secret calculations from Bible stories. Really the tradition of conjurring prophecies from narratives goes back many centuries. Russel, like his predecesors, used Daniel 4 to calculate that 1844 would be the end. he then added 30 years to recalculate to 1874. Then later added 40 years to arrive at 1914. They later changed the calculations and expectations but retained the 1914 date because they had too much invested in it. In the process they had to move the starting date 20 years to keep 1914. There is no evidence for 607. It is a theological necessity and as a result they have seized upon some irregularities in the ancient records and exploited the public's ignorance of Assyriology. The WT writers themselves are aware of the impossibilies posed by their redating. See here: http://quotes.watchtower.ca/607bce-table.htm.
    Here is a thread that lays out the facts simply: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/55372/1.ashx Be aware that there is a poster here that has tested all our patience with his illogic and willful deception with regard this pet doctrin of the JWs.

  • Ticker
    Ticker

    Thanks for posting that Peaceful Pete. Shows clearly that the 607 date is not feasible in any instance when compared with that chart and the 18th regnal year of the Babylonian King. I cant see in any way how the Society can come up with any real evidence to support their 607 bce.. To accept 607 one would have to ignore all the historic and artifactual evidence clearly pointing to a date of 586/587 bce.. Im not sure because I havnt read the book yet but I think that Carl Olof Jonsons "Gentile Times Reconsidered" would be an excellent read in discussion of this date.

    Ticker

    Ticker

  • greendawn
    greendawn

    That is indeed an arbitrary move, how do the dubs justify giving that prophecy a second non literal interpretation when one would say that only a literal interpretation applies.

    After all Russell who espoused this concept also believed that pyramids could give the time when the end would come and made calculations based on their dimensions. How can someone having such ridiculous ideas be taken seriously?

  • proplog2
    proplog2

    The overarching error in connection with the date of 1914 is not
    the debate over when the count of 2,520 years starts but whether
    there should be ANY counting of 2,520 years at all. On page 94 of the Daniel book the
    question for paragraph 24 is:

    "The great dream tree symbolizes what?"

    The Daniel book says

    "the tree stands for rulership and sovereignty far grander than
    that of Babylon's king. It symbolizes the universal sovereignty of
    Jehovah...especially with respect to the earth."

    If you read the 4th Chapter of Daniel it says nothing specifically
    about the tree symbolizing the universal sovereignty of Jehovah.
    Since the 4th Chapter of Daniel doesn't say that the tree
    symbolizes the universal sovereignty of Jehovah it is THEREFORE
    presumptuous for the Watchtower to make that claim. The 4th
    chapter however doesn't leave the interpretation of the dream to
    our imagination. It tells us specifically what that tree
    represents. Daniel reveals the interpretation with these words at
    Daniel 4:22 "It is YOU O king". That's it. The tree represents
    Nebuchadnezzar. Any further elaboration of this simple explanation
    is pure speculation. The Watchtower is allowed to speculate but
    individual JW's are disfellowshipped if they question this
    Watchtower speculation.

    Next the Watchtower invokes an imaginary "rule" for interpreting
    prophecy.

    The question for paragraph 28 page 96:

    "What rule must be applied to the 2,520 days of the prophetic seven
    times?"

    The answer: "A day for a year." To support this "rule" they quote
    Ezekiel 4:6,7 and Numbers 14:34. Read those scriptures. There is
    nothing about them that suggests that there is some universal rule
    of using a day for a year when interpreting prophecies that mention
    a number of days. Once again this is speculation. It's no wonder
    they warn JW's about speculation. They seem to have a problem with
    the consequences of foolish speculation.

    But, suppose there really is a rule that you use a day for a year?
    How consistent are they in following that rule? Why don't they use
    that rule with Daniel 8:14 in counting the 2,300 days? Or what
    about the 1,290 days and 1,335 days in Daniel 12:11,12? Apparently
    this rule is not a rule at all!!

    The debate on 607BC is an interesting discussion but it is merely
    a side issue. Even if 607BC were the indisputable beginning to the
    70 year period of desolation there is no basis for counting 2,520
    years to some imagined point in the future when Christ begins to
    rule.

  • stillajwexelder
    stillajwexelder

    think that Carl Olof Jonsons "Gentile Times Reconsidered" would be an excellent read in discussion of this date.

    ABSOLUTELY

  • peacefulpete
    peacefulpete

    Good point about the arbitrary application of the day for a year theory. Another point is that they assert a 360 day long prophetic year but then use a 365 day year in their calculation. Here's a thread I posted for giggles a while back. Note Narkissos' comment about the use of 365 day solar year being big in Jewish apocalyptic circles. :Just for chuckles...years 365 or 360

  • greven
    greven

    Yup! just reading the bible shoots there speculations down.

    we have:

    1) prophetic dream or vision whatever.

    2) the explanation

    3) it's recorded fulfillment (well, alledged fulfillment)

    What more do you want? Anything else is pure speculation and 'going beyond what is written'.

    Greven

  • Hellrider
    Hellrider

    "greven"? You`re a black metal fan?

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