Howdy - Help needed

by jstalin 8 Replies latest jw friends

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  jstalin

  Hello all,

  It's great to finally be able to post here (there's been a problem over the last month with new registration). I've been lurking for about two months because I have a friend who's a JW and I was interested in finding more out about his religion. I started asking him things about it and he would get a bit cagy and wondered why I was asking. I'm agnostic and he knows it. I've built up enough trust with the issue that he answers my questions now, but he's also started giving me copies of the literature. He last gave me the prophecy of Daniel book. After reading that book, I was shocked by a few things:

  1) The non-sensical "dating" scheme of 607 BC and 1914. Could any JW explain the reasoning behind that one without a WT book backing them up?

  2) The tone of the writing. I am a very extensive reader and I read mostly non-fiction. The tone of the JW literature is as though I'm being talked down to. It was very hard for me to finish the Daniel book because I was very irritated. The writing style is that of about fifth grade. And... they quote the encyclopedia. That's is something you do only in grade school.

  3) The complete conjecture. How can anyone take the Daniel prophecy and make it into a King of the North (currently unknown) and the King of the South (USA). Gee, is the next king of the North going to be Canada, or Santa Claus?

  In addition, he invited me to the latest memorial at the Kingdom Hall in his area. I decided to go, telling him that I have no interest in converting, that I simply want to go to observe and experience something new. He was ok with that. I again was surprised by several things at the meeting:

  1) My friend said it would probably be packed, so we left early. I'd say the place was 25% full, which made me chuckle. At the end of the "meeting," the elder addressed the "many guests." I looked around and couldn't pick out anyone who looked like a guest.

  2) The Bible quoting by the elder during the reading was a little laughable. They pick out one verse from five different books and/or stories to prove the point. It's selective quoting. It makes me wonder if any of them read an entire book and/or chapter of the Bible.

  3) I got love-bombed. I walked in the door with my friend and suddenly everyone was shaking my hand and asking my name. I'm an introvert by nature, so this unsettled me. They were obviously all fake.

  So it was at that point, and after starting to read this site, that I realized that my friend is schockingly brainwashed. I bought the book Combatting Mind Control and thoroughly enjoyed it. It's my personal mission to try and un-convert my friend now so I've been reading as much as I can on JWs and WT. I plan to take it very slowly, but I want to get him to start thinking about WT doctrine. I tried just once having a discussion about evolution and that was fruitless... they have no interest in objective fact, just what the WT says about the issue, so I've decided to take a more subtle approach.

  That's where you all come in... can any of you suggest some tactics to take to introduce him to the "real truth?"
• 

  under74

  Well, you might slowly start to plant a "seed of doubt" by bringing up 1914 and the UN scandal....also the great amount of child molester JWs. Look at the "best of" section on this site to get more information...and www.silentlambs.org

  PS- Glad you found this site. Hope to hear more from you.
• 

  Shania

  Welcome Jst.......I liked your review of the Daniel Book, you are right on when you say 5th grd. level, now try studing that same book once, twice and sometimes even three times, no wonder one might be brainwashed.

  I would recommend him reading George Orwell's book 1984, it perfectly describes what the new world that JW are hoping for, one no human with a thinking mind would ever want to live in. Maybe you can read it first to get some insight on the matierial, you will see many similarities to Wachtower World.
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  jgnat

  1) The non-sensical "dating" scheme of 607 BC and 1914. Could any JW explain the reasoning behind that one without a WT book backing them up?

  Answer: Nobody can. Most JW's can't make sense of it either. The easiest refutation is that the fall of Jerusalem was in 586 BC. So says any reputable source.

  2) The tone of the writing. ... I was very irritated. The writing style is that of about fifth grade....

  Answer: I take pride in writing clearly. I understand your irritation. I can take no more than an hour at a sitting. By then, I am dead to any serious study. Did you also notice the heavy use of passive voice and repitition? I think it is meant to hypnotize, not rationalize.

  3) The complete conjecture.

  Answer: Suuure. And also nearly every prophecy in the bible points to the future Watchtower Bible and Tract Society. Suuuure.

  Re: The Memorial. This is a standard JW invitation. The head-count at the memorial is used to track growth of the Witnesses. So Headquarters always puts out the word to "pack the seats".

  1) ... At the end of the "meeting," the elder addressed the "many guests."...

  Answer: That was you! That was you! Be proud. Notice the passive voice, though. No credit to the individual.

  2) . It makes me wonder if any of them read an entire book and/or chapter of the Bible.

  Answer: Very few do. I mean, there is SO MUCH READING to complete in a week, who has time for in-depth study? By the way, for a JW, in-depth study means looking up a subject in WT literature, starting with the Reasoning book and the "Aid to Bible Understanding". The publisher who quotes the most WT sources wins.

  3) I got love-bombed. I walked in the door with my friend and suddenly everyone was shaking my hand and asking my name. I'm an introvert by nature, so this unsettled me. They were obviously all fake.

  Answer: You are an astute young man. I am a non-JW married to a JW. At the second meeting I attended, a doddering widow patted my arm and told me "it will be all right" and I would "get used to it". Her words gave me the chills. All of a sudden, I felt like a canary in a guilded cage. I never want to "get used" to that cage.

  ... It's my personal mission to try and un-convert my friend now so .....I plan to take it very slowly, but I want to get him to start thinking about WT doctrine.....they have no interest in objective fact.....That's where you all come in... can any of you suggest some tactics to take to introduce him to the "real truth?"

  Oh, my. The road ahead of you is far longer than you can imagine. JW's are primed to expect opposition and dismiss it as from Satan. Once in a while a JW wakes up on their own, and the results can be surprisingly fast. Read ithinkisee's recent posts for an example. A more likely scenario is a gradual "waking up" over many years. The best way is for them to see a disconnect between the JW words and actions. JW's are constantly told that they are the "happiest people on earth", though it doesn't take long for an astute outsider to spot the misery. Help your friend spot the misery. Point out how un-Christian that behavior is.
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  Dune

  Do you think "helping" your friend find the "real truth" is a very good thing? I myself woke up by myself. Hell i've had doubts since middle school, but I searched for them myself. I havent left yet, but i'm slowly getting there. but my point is, i think that When you give a witness information that goes contrary to every thing he/she believes in, they put up a defensive wall ( and you might lose a friend) I think its best to ask them open ended questions such as "Was it all worth it?" or "Are you really happy?"(In a more tactful context of course). I kind of felt the same way about my brother and tried all that, but he quickly turned me down and it turned into an intellectual tennis match. It was at this point that i realized that if he is really happy(or thinks he is), who are you or I to take away that happiness from them.
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  jgnat

  Dune, you also are an astute young man. You will go far.
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  jstalin

  All,

  Thanks for your responses so far.

  jgnat: I didn't notice the passive voice until you just pointed it out. I knew that there was something else wrong with the pattern of speech, but that just nailed it for me. Very odd. Another thing I noticed is the constant use of qualifiers, such as "it appears," or "it seems," or "apparently." These are followed by absolutely no reasoning as to why things "appear" to be a certain way. The one instance that pops into my mind is in the Daniel book where it says that "Nabonidus, it seems, married the daughter of Nebuchadnezar." It seems? Where does it seem? What a joke! No citation, no paranthetical notation, no footnote... nothing!

  Dune: I have thought about your statement before I posted this. I don't want to heavy-handedly attack him, my tactic is to very slowly introduce items of doubt. I've said things, completely off the cuff sounding and unrelated to JWs to him that I hope will get him to connect some dots. I'm working this very subtly. I want him to be able to discover the truth by himself, with a little nudging from me.
• 

  talesin

  The fact that he is your friend shows that he is already disobeying one of their strict rules: no worldly associations.

  The JWs teach that 'the worst JW is better than the best worldly person'.

  In other words, those of the world have no moral character.

  Just by being a good friend, a moral person, and respecting his boundaries (ie, not pushing your thoughts on him), you are already teaching him a new way of looking at nonJWs.

  You'll get good advice and ideas here from reading folks like jgnat, CYP, jaffacake, nowisee and many others who are on the same mission. I hold nothing but admiration for those who are seeking to rescue their friends and family from the cult.

  tal
• 

  jaffacake

  jstalin

  Welcome. I am in a similar position to you. My friend is a newly baptised JW & I attended this years memorial with him.

  My mistake was to go in gung-ho and take the doctrines apart in a 40 page dossier. This was handed over to the elders and I'm now treated with great suspicion.

  Communication has all but ceased. I even studied for a couple of months with a JW elder, and tried hard not to question or criticise too much. However, on the first occasion I queried a doctrine and proved from their own publications they don't get information frrom God, to my surprise he agreed with me. I thought this was a breakthrough, but there were no witnesses, and he will no longer study with me.

  I told my lifelong friend what happened and he simply doesn't believe me.

  My advice is to pretend you are genuinely interested and have an open mind. Don't let them get off difficult questions. Pursue one issue at a time before moving on. What reading have you done?

  For ammunition read Crisis of Conscience, In Search of Christian Freedom, Captives of a Concept for starters:

  http://www.commentarypress.com/booklist-eng.html

  I hope you have more success than I have to date. It is ten times harder than I imagined six months ago.