Posts by ellderwho

55

Heaven

by ClassAvenger in

i was talking with a jw friend and he said that they believed they would live here on earth forever.

he told me a verse in psalms were it says "...the meek will inherit the earth.

" for those who believe in heaven, what does this verse mean?

My understanding is that the "new earth" (Isa. 65:17;66:22; 2Pet. 3:13; Rev. 21:1) refers to the time after Christ reigns for a thousand years during the millennium. During that, Christ reigns in righteousness over the earth, but very few details are given.

There certainly is alot of speculation about the millennial earth, but not Bible based.

2cor.12:2 Pauls talks about being "caught up to the third heaven". Verse 4 he says "he was caught up into paradise" sounds like heaven and paradise are the same place.

Rev 2:7 "To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God."

Rev 22 a picture of heaven is given and the tree of life is mentioned three times, v. 2,14,19 shows that paradise is synonymous with heaven.

Jw's clearly teach that after Armageddon,(living Jws, btw. never paid for sin) they are the ones responsible for turning the ruined earth into a paradise, not just for themsleves but for billions past, to give them a "second chance."

Hebrews 9:27 "and it is appointed unto men once to die...." If there were a second chance and people failed that test, they would have died twice? hmmm

55

Heaven

by ClassAvenger in

i was talking with a jw friend and he said that they believed they would live here on earth forever.

he told me a verse in psalms were it says "...the meek will inherit the earth.

" for those who believe in heaven, what does this verse mean?

ellderwho

I'll take a stab,

Rev 7:9---"After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the lamb, clothed in white robes and palm branches in their hands"

The WT says this refers to the "other sheep" mentioned in Jn 10:16. They will allegedly live forever on paradise earth.

Contextually, the "great multitude" refers to those who become christians during the future Tribulation period -Rev 7:14 this is clear.

No where in the text of Revelation does it say this "great multitude " is physically exempt from heaven and will live forever on paradise earth.

Rev 7:9 explicitly refers to this group "standing before the throne and before the lamb" they are physically present before God.

Rev 7:15 of the multitude "for this reason, they serve him day and night in his temple." Where is Gods temple??

Ask the Jw to defend (scriptually) that the "great multitude" lives forever on a paradise earth.

While your at it, ask the Jw why does the lamb receive worship in Rev 5:12-14, - 7:9,17 ??

55

Heaven

by ClassAvenger in

i was talking with a jw friend and he said that they believed they would live here on earth forever.

he told me a verse in psalms were it says "...the meek will inherit the earth.

" for those who believe in heaven, what does this verse mean?

ellderwho

He told me a verse in Psalms were it says "...the meek will inherit the earth." For those who believe in heaven

He's probably refering to Psalm 37:9,11,29. These verses allegedly prove that some of "Jehovahs" people will live forever on a paradise earth.

However, the psalmist is not refering to a distant future when Yahweh will rid the earth of all wicked, but his own time period and the following generations.

The psalmist is saying in his time, wicked people would be cut off from the promise land, and the righteous would experience blessings in the promise land.

The hebrew word used for earth has a refrence to land. specifically the land of Judea promised to the Jewish patriarchs. Or an inheritance.

The Witnesses always misinterpret "other sheep" great multitude","Little flock."

Not once does Jesus restrict the kingdom of God to specific number of people. On the contrary he said all people should seek the kingdom, and who sought it would find it.

"If anyone serves Me, he must follow Me, and where I am, there My servant will be also. Jn 12:26 ---Where's that???

51

Update on study with Elder....

by shotgun in

i took the advice of the forum and informed him i wouldlike to study the bible.

he arrived case in hand and pulled out the draw close to jehovah publication.. i said i thought we were going to study the bible...he then said well this is a bible publication...i said has not past publications contained errors and changes in teachings while the bible remains true.

he said yesssss.......do you have something inparticular you want to look at in the bible.....i said i thought we could start in matthew and work our way through.

ellderwho

Scholar,

Ive asked you to help me by using scripture to envoke Jehovahs Holy Spirit from my sinful state.

That was your suggestion? As a "scholar" I would think you could rattle off at least 5-10 scriptures.

I believe quite firmly that the chronology as taught by the society id accurate and in harmony with both the biblical and secular evidence..

Would you be able to state the above say around 1875,1900,1910,1915,1920,1925,1930,1935. Your putting alot of trust in man.

Jesus said, "for judgement I came into this world, so that those who do not see may see and those who see will become blind." John 9:39 NASB

Can you see what I mean?

51

Update on study with Elder....

by shotgun in

i took the advice of the forum and informed him i wouldlike to study the bible.

he arrived case in hand and pulled out the draw close to jehovah publication.. i said i thought we were going to study the bible...he then said well this is a bible publication...i said has not past publications contained errors and changes in teachings while the bible remains true.

he said yesssss.......do you have something inparticular you want to look at in the bible.....i said i thought we could start in matthew and work our way through.

ellderwho

scholar,

I apologize for the poor understanding of your organization. What I stated in my last post is very close if not exactly what was given to me by the elder I study with. He's not a 'light weight" elder. (educated in law and elder since '71)

Either your understanding is poor, or the elder I study with is poor.

Futhermore you've created a perplexing issue for myself. Explain to me how I as a human can evoke Gods holy spirit from scripture all by myself ?

Show me in scripture, from my sinful state, on my own made up mind can decide, Gee, I think I'll call upon Jehovah and make him listen to me.

"This is why I have said to you, No one can come to me unless it is granted by the father. Jn 6:65b NWT

"just as he chose us in union with him before the founding of the world, that we should be holy and without belmish before him in love" Eph. 1:4 NWT

'There is no one that has any insight, there is no one that seeks for God." Ro.3:11 NWT

Scholar, Are you implying by your post that these scriptures cited should not apply to me?

Thank you in advance for you reply

51

Update on study with Elder....

by shotgun in

i took the advice of the forum and informed him i wouldlike to study the bible.

he arrived case in hand and pulled out the draw close to jehovah publication.. i said i thought we were going to study the bible...he then said well this is a bible publication...i said has not past publications contained errors and changes in teachings while the bible remains true.

he said yesssss.......do you have something inparticular you want to look at in the bible.....i said i thought we could start in matthew and work our way through.

ellderwho

shotgun, email me. I think we can share notes. er- eldernotes.

51

Update on study with Elder....

by shotgun in

i took the advice of the forum and informed him i wouldlike to study the bible.

he arrived case in hand and pulled out the draw close to jehovah publication.. i said i thought we were going to study the bible...he then said well this is a bible publication...i said has not past publications contained errors and changes in teachings while the bible remains true.

he said yesssss.......do you have something inparticular you want to look at in the bible.....i said i thought we could start in matthew and work our way through.

ellderwho

scholar----------- "the Society has provided much information on this subject to provide a sound basis for faith in our sound and beautiful chronology."

Since the Societys inception, its been guided or looked over, lead, directed by, inspected by Jehovahs "active force" and it is assumed the "governing body" is the "Faithful and discreet slave" Does the FDS at some point, pass on to the writing department, "inspired thoughts" to be transcribed into books, Watchtower periodicals, or any other form to "feed the flock" ?

My personal line of reasoning would be this, that assuming the role of "faithful and discreet slave" would be a very heavy burden. Esspecially an Organization wanting to be recongnized as the only "truth" here on earth.

So the next question would be, from whom does the Faithful and discreet slave obtain their information?

If, Jehovah is telling the FDS things to tell the flock, dont you think that he(yahweh) would make sure that the flock is not misinformed by the "slave" passing on misinformation?

If, what you say in quotes is true, then all we have as "real truth" comes from the FDS.

13

Reply to Elderwho and Scholar on Chronology

by shotgun in

i had to start a new thread on this as i wanted to see the response from the distinguished forum on this subject.

scholar saidyou are quite wrong in assuming that in connection with chronology that i am only familiar with wt materials.

in fact i have had a keen interest in chronology for some thirty years and have a large number of journal articles and standard reference books on chronology including editions of edwin thiele and carl jonsson.

ellderwho

" After reigning but two years King Evil-merodach was murdered by his brother in law Neriglissar. According to the inscriptions that have been found, this usurper of the throne spent most of his time in building operations and reigned for four years. When he died, his son Labashi-Marduk, though not yet of age, succeeded him. He was a vicious boy, and within nine months he had his throat cut by an assassin. Nabonidus, who had served as Governor of Babylon and who had been Nebuchadnezzer's favorite son-in-law, now took the throne and had a fairly glorious reign till Babylon fell in 539 B.C." Babylon The Great Has Fallen' page 184 .

Insight on the Scriptures Vol.1 page 466

Chart of chronology:

Jehoiakim began to rule as king, tributary

to Egypt (11)

In the third year of the kingship of Jehoiakim the king of Judah, Nebuchadnezzer the king of Babylon came to Jerusalem to lay seige to it. Daniel 1:1 NWT

My ? is this, according to Insight on the scriptures vol. 1 that is qouted above, would that make Nebuchadnezzers first year reign 624/23 ?

51

Update on study with Elder....

by shotgun in

i took the advice of the forum and informed him i wouldlike to study the bible.

he arrived case in hand and pulled out the draw close to jehovah publication.. i said i thought we were going to study the bible...he then said well this is a bible publication...i said has not past publications contained errors and changes in teachings while the bible remains true.

he said yesssss.......do you have something inparticular you want to look at in the bible.....i said i thought we could start in matthew and work our way through.

ellderwho

scholar

Because the elder I study with will only recongnize Wt. publications thats all I can show him about chronology. I started a collection about a year ago and cannot find any years of rulers after king Nebuchadrezzar(wt.624-582) until Nabonidus(wt.556-539).The Wt. does not show a rule for Naboplassar. At least not in the Insight books.

But I did find a list in "Babylon the great has fallen" 1963 wtbs, page 184 There Evil-marodach is given two years of rule.

Neriglassar is given four years of rule.

And Labashi-Marduk is given nine months.

However when I show him the simple math of rulers by wt years It would be as follows: The end of Nebuchadrezzer 582bc

Evil-merodach-582-580 (2years)

Neriggissar--580-576 (4years)

Labashi-Marduk- 9 months 575 (1year)

By this math I cannot reach the year that the wt says Nabonidus ruled 556-539 (17 years).

Shotgun,

maybe your elder would know the answer.

Scholar, maybe you can help with this math?

51

Update on study with Elder....

by shotgun in

i took the advice of the forum and informed him i wouldlike to study the bible.

he arrived case in hand and pulled out the draw close to jehovah publication.. i said i thought we were going to study the bible...he then said well this is a bible publication...i said has not past publications contained errors and changes in teachings while the bible remains true.

he said yesssss.......do you have something inparticular you want to look at in the bible.....i said i thought we could start in matthew and work our way through.

ellderwho

I also am studying with a elder, my moms husband, we started the Draw close broch. about six months ago. were in the forth chapter. I find that it really grows my faith. I hold his(elder) feet to the fire on a lot of issues. He did himself in years ago with the comment "if 607 is wrong you can through it all out the widow". So that really started me in a study of neo-babylonian rules.

I find he's really lost without a cross reference nwt.