Posts by ellderwho

55

Heaven

by ClassAvenger in

i was talking with a jw friend and he said that they believed they would live here on earth forever.

he told me a verse in psalms were it says "...the meek will inherit the earth.

" for those who believe in heaven, what does this verse mean?

You state; I apologize, but a gain, you err. God chose King Saul. But this is not a case of salvation is it? He needed Saul to do a specific job. The Bible in many areas shows how God uses individuals for certain tasks. You mention Saul as a example of God "un-choosing" a person. But you have to look at why, he chose. As I stated there are many examples of God spirit coming upon a person temporarely so that God can use them for great acts. This happend alot to Israel in Judges 3:8-10 This was not always permenant, sometimes a temporary manifestation of the HolySpirit. The Spirit even came upon non-believers to do unusual tasks.In Numbers 24:2 Gods Spirit used Balaam. (He was a sorcerer). And Pharaoh. In 2Chronicles 36:23 The LORD moved the heart of King Cyrus. The point, Gods Holy Spirit gave the person power to what God needed them to do, but not always did it produce the fruits of the spirit. As in Sauls case in his early years he was a different person, as the result of the Holy spirits work in him. But as his power grew so did his pride. And in 1Sam 16:14 The spirit left him, v.23 then you have the spirit coming back whenever David would play the harp. Forgive me, for scripture disagrees with your example of God choosing and unchoosing. Look at the example of Jonah. I wont give you scripture. For you quote our Lord;

"If ANYONE (and not just some group named by some group from among earthling man) eats of this bread, he WILL live forever..."

You missed my point, but since you brought up this point, will take it from v60. of John 6 Here the disciples were grumbling saying " this is a hard teaching who can understand this" ( speaking of eating bread to live for ever). Then Jesus clearifys v63. "the spirit gives life, the flesh counts for nothing, (this would include the heart). wont you agree. Without the Holy Spirit we can not even see a need for a new life. John 14:17 (the world cannot except the spirit of truth). I gave you an example of what ears that hear and you turned it around; You state: "So, most assuredly, they heard the WORDS our Lord uttered, did they not? But… you are making the same error as many others when you assume that our Lord is speaking of the hearing with the FLESH." You say" you assume" You then chop off the point I was trying to make; I said: " the reason you cannot hear is that you do not belong to God." Why would I make that refrence to scpiture if, as you say" I am making the same mistake as others "? Then you agree with me:

Absolutely! And how is it “evidenced” that one “belongs” to God? Isn’t one “chosen”…

. Forgive me, you seem to want to read pass the points that I give.

Aguest,which REFUSED to hear.

Again, its not that the Pharisees "refused" to hear, they could not hear. . The flesh is nothing, including the heart, if you dont have the spirit of truth, first. What good then, would a loving, honest, caring heart be, without the spirit of truth? Their are plenty of people in the world with good hearts. And these same individuals do not have the LORD as lord of their life. This is fact. .You state:

We CAN make our hearts RECEPTIVE... to the best of our ability..

Why I ask you, do you still continue to contradict scripture, with words like "we" and" best of our ability" ?? When later in you post you agree we can do nothing on our own;

Thus it is not by our FLESH

Aguest: it is by our SPIRIT that we prove it.

No, it is by the Holy Spirit that it is revealed. Again you state:

be upon YOU… if you so wish it. Indeed, if YOU are thirsting and YOU are hearing and YOU are wishing, then may you, too, hear what the spirit and bride KEEP ON saying:

Why do you use language like " if you so wish it" Dearest Aguest, I have to rebuke you with scripture, I have already given you scripture that contradicts your points. These are not my positions they are the Bibles. Confidence in the scriptures will allow you to see how humble we should be. We deserve Gods wrath period. People do not like to hear that. It really comes down to this point " How far into sin did Adam fall? What is the bottom line? Did he fall a little, to where he can help himself up, or did he fall so helplessly into the pit of sin, there was nothing he could do for himself. For, if you agree with the latter, you will see how hopeless we really are no matter how much "spiritual food" is put in front of someone who does not have the "spirit" to eat, they will continue to be DEAD in their state and will die in their sin. No matter what you think the condition of the heart is. As you state:

May you, too, say, “Blessed is he that comes in the name of JAH…” and give ALL praise and honor and glory to that One and to the One who sent him forth.

ellderwho

6

Resurrection of Sodoma

by ClassAvenger in

i am going to be sharing with a jw and i want to bring up the doctrine of the resurrection of the people of sodoma.

i have heard that the watchtower has contradicted itself by changing this doctrine several times, and in one of the books they say that the "new light" can never contradict the past doctrine, but only build on it i think.

well, post whatever information you guys have on this topic.

ellderwho

ClassAvenger,

I brought this up to my moms husband (elder Bob my study) I got him to give me his position first, (wont be brought back) then I showed him Insight to script. were they do come back. I could tell he was a little miffed. He also said "thats fine, but I still feel they wont be ressurected, but I wound not say that in public."

I'll wait to show him the rest of the flip flops on this. As it was recomended to me its never good to unload all the amo at once so I will trickle out the flip flop to him.

I dont want him to shut down.

Ellderwho

55

Heaven

by ClassAvenger in

i was talking with a jw friend and he said that they believed they would live here on earth forever.

he told me a verse in psalms were it says "...the meek will inherit the earth.

" for those who believe in heaven, what does this verse mean?

ellderwho

Aguest,

I would like to ponder your thought of the condition of mans heart;

it is what is truly in our HEARTS... that is examined.

"The LORD looks down from heaven on the sons of man to see if there are any who understand, any who seek God. 3. All have turned aside, they have all together become corrupt; there is no one who does good, not even one.' Ps. 14:2,3 NIV

"The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure..." Jer 17:9 NIV

"The heart is more treacherous than any thing else..." Jer 17:9 NWT

"What comes out of a mens hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery..."Mt 20:10; Mk 7:21

but to those whose "yes" means "yes"... and whose "no" means "no" (when making an agreement... or covenant... with another).

As a condition of the heart Im not sure what your implying.

And the spirit and the bride KEEP ON saying: 'Come!' And let ANYONE hearing say: 'Come!' And let ANYONE thirsting come; let ANYONE THAT WISHES... take life's water free."

Notice in your quote it is the "spirit" of the bride that calls. And anyone hearing

Thats the point, who hears?

You make bold italics in your quote;

ANYONE THAT WISHES...

With that line of reasoning you have flesh giving birth to spirit.

In John, Jesus says to the Pharisee Nicodemus "Flesh gives birth to flesh, but spirit gives birth to spirit."

"you do not believe me because you are not my sheep. 27. My sheep listen to my voice; I know them and they follow me." Jn 10:26,27

A good example of ears that hear is given in John 8:43 Jesus states;

"why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say.

Obivously the religious leaders spoken of had ears.

Then in verse 47 Jesus says " the reason you cannot hear is that you do not belong to God."

So then, who comes to drink lifes water, is the one who hears, and the one who hears, is the one who belongs to God. Nothing on our own. For if it our choice to choose God we will ultimitly un-choose God.

It is not in our nature to choose God.

But if it is God that chooses us, their is no way to un-choose his decision.

And relying on our yes staying yes or our no staying no. Would be relying on ourselves to complete or hold up requirements to enter the Kingdom. Which of course is an impossibility.

"After beginning with the spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Gal 3:3

ellderwho

55

Heaven

by ClassAvenger in

i was talking with a jw friend and he said that they believed they would live here on earth forever.

he told me a verse in psalms were it says "...the meek will inherit the earth.

" for those who believe in heaven, what does this verse mean?

ellderwho

Aguest,

Our understanding of what is written is always subjected to what passes our mouths, in this case keyboards, We may say in defense things that we might not really mean, only to try and win an argument , Im hopeful my "skin" will thicken with each post that I log over time, I appreciate you patience and understanding of my newness.

ellderwho

55

Heaven

by ClassAvenger in

i was talking with a jw friend and he said that they believed they would live here on earth forever.

he told me a verse in psalms were it says "...the meek will inherit the earth.

" for those who believe in heaven, what does this verse mean?

ellderwho

Mizpah,

Yes Luke 16, Parable ?

John refers to souls; Rev 6:9-11,v.9 'I saw under the alter the souls of those who had been slain..." v.10 "and they cried with a loud voice;"how long...." 11 each of them was given a white robe and told to wait a little while longer..."

My question is, what state are they in, and what is the condition of their soul at this point?

I agree it is healthy to discuss and debate, but, to have to re-invent your position on every post is a bit distracting to the issue at hand. ie location of a tree..LOL

Ellderwho

55

Heaven

by ClassAvenger in

i was talking with a jw friend and he said that they believed they would live here on earth forever.

he told me a verse in psalms were it says "...the meek will inherit the earth.

" for those who believe in heaven, what does this verse mean?

ellderwho

Aguest:

In my Father’s house are MANY dwelling places (abodes),

Yes I agree ,

as well as MANY territories, regions, principalities, etc. Heaven is not a one-level realm, for it is not bound as the physical world is.

But, then you go into spiritualizing scripture, with the above statement.

"I am directed by my Lord to tell you what that Tree (of Life) is... whether you hear or you refrain." I’m not sure what you mean by that.

Nor can I tell you, unless you truly desire to know. If so, my Lord will permit to respond

.

Aguest, I can desire all I want, If the father does not draw me "us" to the son theres no use. I can desire for a million years and it will be for not. I(we as humans) myself am unable to establish a union with Yahweh.

Gen 2:9 "tree" was used to expound the fact of where this tree was located not the metaphorical refrences to the "Christ." But point taken.

You are mistaken.

The Tree IS my Lord, the True Vine. It is HE that God “planted” in the garden as a means by which those who eat from him can live. When you read Revelation, perhaps you still subscribe the WTBTS’ false use of “trees”, versus the true word, “tree”. But my Lord grants me to give you another basis:

You come off as fault finding, with the trying to win a argument attitude.

Aguest,

Again, the example I give of the "tree" is its location, not what it represents, Ive stated this twice to you and you still seem to want to argue what the "tree" stands for.

Do you recall the words of the first Psalm – “Happy is the MAN that…”? Do you recall that is says, “And he will be LIKE A TREE PLANTED BY RIVERS OF WATERS…” This very Psalm is speaking of my Lord. As are all of the Psalms, save less than ten. Re-read them, from beginning to end, and you will “see” it.

Thats wonderful Aguest,

My point is NOT what the "tree" represents.Its Location,location,location.

There is no spiritual death – the spirit does not die, but returns to God.

You are mistaken, being born makes you physically alive and places you in your parents family Jn 1:13, being born of God makes you spiritually alive and puts you in Gods family, 1:12

We can blame Adam for our maladies in the flesh, but we cannot blame him for our own "bad" spirit. Thus, destruction of the spirit is something we gain all on our own. And it is the VERY thing that Satan wants. He does not care if we die in the flesh, for he knows we can be resurrected. However, if he can get us to sin WITH OUT SPIRIT – that is, to “curse God” – well, then there is no longer any salvation for us, for the very One God sent to save us FROM everlasting death we have cursed, by means of cursing the One with whom he is “in union”. If by means of doing to US, you did to HIM, then certainly if you cursed God… you cursed him

. I believe you are confusing the Soul,spirit,and body.

Satan… does not want your flesh… he wants your SPIRIT. He... is a SPIRIT. What need does he have of your flesh? The flesh... is of no use at all. But your SPIRIT... THAT... h e wants to be destroyed. Why? Because it is not we in the flesh who are threat to him: it is we IN THE SPIRIT. HE… is a spirit! What can we, flesh, do to him? However, we, AS SPIRITS… will have the SAME “power” as he. THIS… is what he wishes to thwart.

In your quote above this one you said

" if he can get us to sin WITH OUT SPIRIT – that is, to “curse God” – well, then there is no longer any salvation for us

Satan and those spirit beings like him believed the inheritance should have gone to him... rather that to our Lord. By means of HIM... it would have passed to HIS children. However, since our Lord inherited, it is OURS. Satan... is out wage war with us... in the hopes that we will RELINQUISH power to HIM. And we do, every time we let him "win." But those are only "little" victories - he wants... the kingdom. That is why he tried to start with the destruction of our Lord: if you can destroy the HEAD... the Body (of Christ) cannot live. That was his purpose in "tempting" our Lord... to get our Lord to worship HIM. When you curse God, then, you are worshipping Satan.

By this quote you are showing you have a "works" based theology manifesting salvation in the flesh

Aguest, help me understand your theology with regards to the presence of Christ, on earth. Is it as follows 1. born a virgin birth

Yes, his flesh was born of the woman, Mary, a virgin, as was his spirit, the woman of God, His "free" wife, Jerusalem Above. Adam, was born to God's slave wife, the earth. Thiese are represented by Sarah (Abraham's free wife - the New Covenant - whose "children" are free, because they will be SPIRITS) and Hagar (the Law Covenant - whose "children" are slaves... as they are bound... by the flesh)

Spiritualizing again.

Yes, as an invisible presence. On the night of Pentecost 30 Ce , as evidenced by the “stiff rushing breeze” and outpouring of holy spirit.

.

40 days after his resurrection

Tell me now what date do you have the "comforter" arriving

ascended to offer his sacrifice,,

Jesus said at his death in fact his last words " it is finished"

Invisible to the fleshly eye.

Who were the disciples looking at behind locked doors (jn 20:19) Thomas, Mary in the garden, the 500

Actually, it is total separation from God that allows such death. If there is ANY connection to God, however minute, there can be on destruction. That is because to some degree, spirit is still shared. And God’s spirit… is “life-giving”. Once such total separation occurs, however, such spirit CAN be destroyed. Utterly. For there is no “life” any longer left in it.

I would like to see the above idea pulled from scripture.

Just a note: the “drop of water” that the Rich Man cried out for was the “water of life”… holy spirit. If he could have had just a DROP… his agony would have been “cooled”… for by means of such drop, he would again have had life.

Your spiritualizing again.

How about focusing on, or giving your own thoughts of where paradise is located, rather than some long convoluted synopsis of what the "tree" stands for or the deminsions of Gods heavenly house and or rooms territories,principalities, for which you embellish scpriture to conject.

Aguest,

As you can see Im a ranked " newbie" with few posts'. However, the last thing I want to do is, while trying to give MY opinion to a question posted, is to have to get into "Biblical positioning" theology, if you will, on matters that certainly drift away from the point of the thread.

You seem to want to answer or correct every poster if it doesnt line up with your theology, which in my opinion is "spiritualized theology"

Time permitting, I would love to discuss in a different setting our theological positions.But a reader of posts' for the last 2.5 years I think I have a feel for the give and take nature of this forum.

I apologize if any offense taken

In Christ, ellderwho

55

Heaven

by ClassAvenger in

i was talking with a jw friend and he said that they believed they would live here on earth forever.

he told me a verse in psalms were it says "...the meek will inherit the earth.

" for those who believe in heaven, what does this verse mean?

ellderwho

Mizpah,

I believe the second death to be eternal separation from God. (spiritual death)

total annihilation

That phrase is a little dogmatic for me.

Their are also many other attributes of God. Most of the time we choose not to think about Gods anger or judgement, which we find condem us.

Luke 13: 22-31 why did the rich man spoken of wind up in a place of "agony" were the poor man Lazarus wound up in the bosom of father Abraham. And the rich man begs for his brothers not to end up in this place of "torment."

Was the rich man already judged, the text does not say.

Even though the rich man received his reward while on earth. But, does not God allow it to rain on the righteous as well as the unrighteous.

55

Heaven

by ClassAvenger in

i was talking with a jw friend and he said that they believed they would live here on earth forever.

he told me a verse in psalms were it says "...the meek will inherit the earth.

" for those who believe in heaven, what does this verse mean?

ellderwho

Aguest states:1. When my Lord returns, he will FIRST gather his chosen ones These include those who belonged to...

DIED during his invisible presence...

by the time he returned,

Aguest, help me understand your theology with reguards to the presence of Christ, on earth.

Is it as follows 1. born a virgin birth

2. "invisably" returned at some point

3. to gather his choosen ones

4. maybe again if your pre-trib

ellderwho

55

Heaven

by ClassAvenger in

i was talking with a jw friend and he said that they believed they would live here on earth forever.

he told me a verse in psalms were it says "...the meek will inherit the earth.

" for those who believe in heaven, what does this verse mean?

ellderwho

Miz:

Adam death; Gen 3:19 'until you return to the ground...."

spiritual death ; Gen 3:7

I can agree with death inherited from Adam, as well a spiritual death.

I believe the spiritual death inherited from Adam shows us how far we fell along with Adam into sin, unable to do anything on our own.

As far being "annihilated" Im not clear on your use of that word.

55

Heaven

by ClassAvenger in

i was talking with a jw friend and he said that they believed they would live here on earth forever.

he told me a verse in psalms were it says "...the meek will inherit the earth.

" for those who believe in heaven, what does this verse mean?

ellderwho

Heaven. Aguest

"they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years"

Aguest, I stand corrected, in that I erantly refferred to the earth during the millennium as a "millennial earth"

Aguest;There is 1,000 year period

millennium (latin for 1,000)

Being "caught up to the third heaven" I was using the example Paul is speaking of a certain place (third heaven) and another place in v.4 "paradise" and the relationship of these two places.

You are correct in that I presented the quoted scriptures as if it were Paul in the third heaven/paradise.

My point is that there is such a place.

Rev 22: 1 Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, as clear as cyrstal, flowing from the throne of God and the Lamb down the middle of the great street of the city. On each side of the river stood the tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, yeilding its fruit every month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations."

John is quoting from Ezekiel 47:12 where water flowing from the temple produces trees with healing leaves.Not that they will need healing so much as that the water produces health and strength.

I am directed by my Lord to tell you what that Tree (of Life) is... whether you hear or you refrain.

Im not sure what you mean by that.

Gen 2:9 "tree" was used to expound the fact of where this tree was located not the metaphorical refrences to the "Christ."

But point taken.

Heaven/Aguest

This is only a generic veiw, that I present to your question posed about heaven/paradise sorry for any confusion.

Ellderwho