Posts by ellderwho

Although you jump though hoops with the survival of the fittest claim, statistical notions,Quantum mechanics, you still come very close to having a purpose without really saying it.

E.

missed the time limit on editing.

774

Freedom to Choose God

by UnDisfellowshipped in

come to the wedding.

' for i say to you that god is able to raise up children to abraham from these stones.

ellderwho

Alanf,

: Remember theres no purpose.
Right, and there's certainly no purpose about the last sand grain's dropping down through the hole.
: Then it is demonstrated that you exist within the natural laws of the universe that cannot change.
That's virtually a self-evident truism that tells us nothing.

So you and the sand grain are unable to effect your outcome.

:: What do you think the fate of the grain of sand is? I didn't postulate one.
: I think you did, you go down the hole.
Jesus Christ! You asked, "In the end does man has the same fate as the grain of sand?" It's pretty obvious that, within the context of my illustration, the sand grains go down through the hole in the hourglass. That's very easy to understand, no? That's not its "fate". At least, not in the sense that normal people mean when they talk about the fate of man. Otherwise you'd have to think that I might think that the fate of mankind is to literally go down some hole.
Your comments are nonsensical.

I'm not sure your understanding me. Or I guess you dont realize what your position does to you. This is your illustration of "life" not mine, and why would I consider your illustration "literal" thats nonsensical!

:: What do you think my purpose is?
Please answer the question. Remember that you told me that I "now have a purpose." I'm champing at the bit to know it.
::: Are you under the same laws as the grain of sand?
:: Of course.
:::: All of the grains obey certain statistical physical laws in falling through the hole, but it can hardly be argued that physical law was designed to enable a sand grain to survive

Ok Alan, your purpose evolves when you claim you can become better off than the natural laws that brought you forth.

My point is that "survival of the fittest", if you will, is a result of the working out of physical laws, not the purpose of those laws. So there is no mold to break out of.

Its my understanding that your lifes purpose is limited to and goverened by inherent laws and cannot violate them.

This is why I stated,

: You have no choice its been decided by natural law.

You will not admit you have a purpose of any sort because it will violate your position.

Although you jump though hoops with the survival of the fittest claim, statistical notions,Quantum mechanics, you still come very close to having a purpose with really saying it.

Your existence/purpose is merely the end result of universal inherent laws, energy, chemical reactions in your brain etc...

But then you state:

Our brains, which evolved over several million years into the best social computers the world has ever seen, and into excellent survival machines that rely specifically on logically putting those "real, observable effects" into actions that result in survival.

This tells me you have risen above those laws by what your brain does with information on hand in that you can survive. But your really not surviving. The end result is you die. The inherent laws take over. People are'nt living longer. (no choice)

There has to be a supernatural nudge if you will to get your life to the next level of "survival" but of course you'll not have that.

Of course I have choice. I have choice in many areas. I can choose to eat or not eat an ice cream cone. I can choose whether to respond to you. I can choose to believe in the Christian God in spite of the evidence.

Yeah, I'll give you those little chioces if thats whats important. But thats all you have. As far as God sure you can believe in him, so what. I will argue you cannot envoke him. (thread title)

You obviously have no real understanding of science or of the statistical notions that underlie modern physics, although I've tried to give you a little bit of information. Sand grains obey statistical laws on two levels: (1) the microscopic, quantum mechanical level; (2) the macroscopic, everyday level. The two levels are subtly connected. Quantum mechanics, via the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle, teaches that absolutely nothing in the universe occurs with certainty, but only with a certain probability. This probability can be so close to unity that for all practical purposes an event is certain. According to these principles, it's virtually certain that even the last sand grain will fall through the hole rather than jump out the top of the hourglass, but no one can predict which one. On the other hand, if we could build an hourglass on an atomic scale and use individual atoms in place of sand grains, then there's a good probability that a "sand grain" will jump out the top of the "hourglass", but we still cannot -- even in principle -- predict which "grain" will fall through the "bottom".

Your right I have no real understatnding of science and statistical notions,but you do, and what has this knowledge done for you? Doesnt change your fate one iota! You will obey the natural laws. You have to.

Things like the mutation and natural selection that together drive evolution are quantum mechanically unpredictable.

Of choices,

: It seems to me you really have no freedom, or independency, and you are guided by these laws. That you can never exceed. Just a bag of chemicals reacting to stimuli.
Well you're wrong. See above.

Didnt you say you have the same fate as the sand grain. See above.

: I believe your arguement is from silience, because you will never know the outcome.
What?

Whatta ya mean "what?"

Things like the mutation and natural selection that together drive evolution are quantum mechanically unpredictable.

No choice there eh.

E.

774

Freedom to Choose God

by UnDisfellowshipped in

come to the wedding.

' for i say to you that god is able to raise up children to abraham from these stones.

ellderwho

where some folks state that it's not their fault that God doesn't want them...

I dont think DD is presenting that thought.

I'll re-read DD post to see.....

E.

774

Freedom to Choose God

by UnDisfellowshipped in

come to the wedding.

' for i say to you that god is able to raise up children to abraham from these stones.

ellderwho

LittleToe,

Where we hi-jacked? And why do you put DDog in hyper-Cal ??

E.

774

Freedom to Choose God

by UnDisfellowshipped in

come to the wedding.

' for i say to you that god is able to raise up children to abraham from these stones.

ellderwho

Whatever individual sand grain happens to be the last down the hole we can call the winner.

Winner of what? Remember theres no purpose.

Then it is demonstrated that you exist within the natural laws of the universe that cannot change.

Therefore any change in your thinking is simply chemical reactions in your brain, that are causing you to say this, because you cannot rise above the laws that bind you.

What do you think the fate of the grain of sand is? I didn't postulate one.

I think you did, you go down the hole.

What do you think my purpose is?:

Are you under the same laws as the grain of sand?

Of course.

:: All of the grains obey certain statistical physical laws in falling through the hole, but it can hardly be argued that physical law was designed to enable a sand grain to survive

You have no choice its been decided by natural law.

It seems to me you really have no freedom, or independency, and you are guided by these laws. That you can never exceed. Just a bag of chemicals reacting to stimuli.

I believe your arguement is from silience, because you will never know the outcome.

Anything more is against what defines evolution.

E.

774

Freedom to Choose God

by UnDisfellowshipped in

come to the wedding.

' for i say to you that god is able to raise up children to abraham from these stones.

ellderwho

AlanF,

: Are'nt you relying on logic?
I like to think I am.
: If so where does this logic come from?
Our brains, which evolved over several million years into the best social computers the world has ever seen, and into excellent survival machines that rely specifically on logically putting those "real, observable effects" into actions that result in survival.

How do you relate the above survival notion to your analogy of a grain of sand surviving?

All of the grains obey certain statistical physical laws in falling through the hole, but it can hardly beargued that physical law was designed to enable a sand grain to survive

In the end does man has the same fate as the grain of sand?

Are you under the same laws as the grain of sand? ellderwho said:
: So your mind is derived from "natural" laws?
Right

: And the end result is your mind/brain has risen above these natural laws to give you a pupose of survival?
Not at all. The notion that survival is a purpose in evolution is flat-out wrong, according to evolutionary biologists. It's a statistical thing. Suppose you pour a cup of sand into an hourglass. There's going to be a last grain of sand that falls through the hole, even though no one can predict which grain it's going to be. That grain might be said to have survived the longest. All of the grains obey certain statistical physical laws in falling through the hole, but it can hardly be argued that physical law was designed to enable a sand grain to survive. It simply turns out that way, without necessarily anyone designing a purpose into the sand or the hourglass or matter itself.

I confused, didnt you say,

" Our brains, which evolved over several million years into the best social computers the world has ever seen" and into excellent survival machines

Then you state,

The notion that survival is a purpose in evolution is flat-out wrong,

This is what Im trying to understand, is how does AlanF break out of the mold that molded you?

Obvisiously you've evolved to the best something, for the fact that you used the word evolve and the word survival indicates you have risen above the "natural laws' that brought you forth as a "being".

You have demonstrated that you have escaped the limitations of "natural laws" and now have a purpose.

This is why I asked you first,what is mankinds purpose?

: If so, how does your brain evolve to elavate itself above its natural origins? ie. chemical reactions in your brain.
Apply my above comments and you'll have your answer.

I dont see what observing a physical action has to do with AlanF rising above the natural laws you want me to observe.

E.

774

Freedom to Choose God

by UnDisfellowshipped in

come to the wedding.

' for i say to you that god is able to raise up children to abraham from these stones.

ellderwho

Take your pick eh?
Gumby

From the author, Skeptics Annotated Bible:

When I was a Christian, I never read the Bible. Not all the way through, anyway. The problem was that I believed the Bible to be the inspired and inerrant word of God, yet the more I read it, the less credible that belief became. I finally decided that to protect my faith in the Bible, I'd better quit trying to read it

Anyone can make the Bible say what they want, What do you want it to say gumbnostic

E

774

Freedom to Choose God

by UnDisfellowshipped in

come to the wedding.

' for i say to you that god is able to raise up children to abraham from these stones.

ellderwho

: Are'nt you relying on logic?
I like to think I am.
: If so where does this logic come from?
Our brains, which evolved over several million years into the best social computers the world has ever seen, and into excellent survival machines that rely specifically on logically putting those "real, observable effects" into actions that result in survival.

So your mind is derived from "natural" laws?

And the end result is your mind/brain has risen above these natural laws to give you a pupose of survival?

If so, how does your brain evolve to elavate itself above its natural origins? ie. chemical reactions in your brain.

E.