Posts by ellderwho

774

Freedom to Choose God

by UnDisfellowshipped in

come to the wedding.

' for i say to you that god is able to raise up children to abraham from these stones.

ellderwho

I concur that all men have sinned, and even Adam came into a state of unrighteousness, requiring imputed righteousness if he were to be saved. Hence my question about changing states, which you've thusfar deftly avoided

You have Adam changing states not me. I do not hold that Adam was righteous to begin with.

Your thoughts, are, as far as I understand is that for Adam to become unrighteous he had to be righteous from the start.

But then when shown, say Noah, as being righteous while also being a sinner, is a little contradictory to your argument, when you follow up your position about Adam then needing "righteousness" after the fall.

Perhaps Im avoiding your question about states because you present a shifting position of ones righteousness. (Adam starts out righteous, falls into unrighteous state, then gets imputed righteousness, that he started out with)

774

Freedom to Choose God

by UnDisfellowshipped in

come to the wedding.

' for i say to you that god is able to raise up children to abraham from these stones.

ellderwho

LT.........prior to the fall we have no basis upon which to declare Adam unrighteous,

Or righteous!

I believe you state this because you say God saw creation and it was good, correct? If so how do you figure Gen 6:5-7

5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man [was] great in the earth, and [that] every imagination of the thoughts of his heart [was] only evil continually

6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

7And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

Verse 8,9 says Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD. And was a righteous man. But this does not mean he never sinned (9:20)

Ecclesiastes7:20

For [there is] not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.

I can't say that it had nothing to do with it, but I do agree that Paul was making a different argument.

This comment pertains to Ro. 3:10. What then do you feel Pauls argument was?

I feel the "righteousness" Im trying to convey that no man has is the righteousness that we have in Christ.

And the "righteousness" you and Gumby are describing certain men as having is more like a discription of character that is ultimatly the result of faith. And this is faith that comes from God, therefore imputed righteousness. Not of ther own.

Heb 11:4-7 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

5.By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

6.But without faith [it is] impossible to please [him]: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and [that] he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

7.By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

774

Freedom to Choose God

by UnDisfellowshipped in

come to the wedding.

' for i say to you that god is able to raise up children to abraham from these stones.

ellderwho

And yet some men are identified as righteous.
You fix the contradiction. I'm not going to do your apologetics for you

Well ya got me there, contradictions in the Bible hmmm. I'll have to look at the word righteous and how its being thrown around here.

774

Freedom to Choose God

by UnDisfellowshipped in

come to the wedding.

' for i say to you that god is able to raise up children to abraham from these stones.

ellderwho

A quote from Matthew Henry re: Romans 3:10

(1.) An habitual defect of every thing that is good. [1.] There is none righteous, none that has an honest good principle of virtue, or is governed by such a principle, none that retains any thing of that image of God, consisting in righteousness, wherein man was created; no, not one; implying that, if there had been but one, God would have found him out. When all the world was corrupt, God had his eye upon one righteous Noah. Even those who through grace are justified and sanctified were none of them righteous by nature. No righteousness is born with us. The man after God?s own heart owns himself conceived in sin.

[2.] There is none that understandeth, v. 11. The fault lies in the corruption of the understanding; that is blinded, depraved, perverted. Religion and righteousness have so much reason on their side that if people had but any understanding they would be better and do better. But they do not understand. Sinners are fools.

[3.] None that seeketh after God, that is, none that has any regard to God, any desire after him. Those may justly be reckoned to have no understanding that do not seek after God. The carnal mind is so far from seeking after God that really it is enmity against him.

[4.] They are together become unprofitable, v. 12. Those that have forsaken God soon grow good for nothing, useless burdens of the earth. Those that are in a state of sin are the most unprofitable creatures under the sun; for it follows, [5.] There is none that doeth good; no, not a just man upon the earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not, Eccl. 7:23. Even in those actions of sinners that have some goodness in them there is a fundamental error in the principle and end; so that it may be said, There is none that doeth good. Malum oritur ex quolibet defect?very defect is the source of evil.

LT you must agree that the righteousness spoken of here has nothing to do with your referring that Gods still considered some righteous.

LT: And yet strangely God still calls some of them righteous

You lost me on that one. Clarify if you would.

774

Freedom to Choose God

by UnDisfellowshipped in

come to the wedding.

' for i say to you that god is able to raise up children to abraham from these stones.

ellderwho

Who are the rightous? Why don't you look in your bible in the appendix under the word "rightous", and see how many ones you can find who were called rightous by god.

Gumby:

Ro. 3:20 wherefore by works of law shall no flesh be declared righteous before Him, for through law is a knowledge of sin. (Youngs)
The appendix list of righteous people, is this not inclusive of the OT?

What of Acts 13:39 ?

"and from all things from which ye were not able in the law of Moses to be declared righteous, in this one every one who is believing is declared righteous; (Youngs)

The righteousness is question would be Adams, and where his so called righteousness originated from.

As LT puts it as a child/parent relationship, if this is the order, then Adam must have imputed righteousness from his father, God. (I dont agree with this relationship)

EW: Good question, because if he did love God he would have listened.

So Adam didn't love God then?
I guess children don't love their parents, when they do wrong, either?

You missed my point. If Adam was righteous how did he get his righteousness and why did it fail him?

Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Nicely quoted out of context, my friend. Besides, I believe that text to be hyperbole (it's also a Pauline full-text quotation of Ps.14 & 53). Can you truly say that none have sought after God, especially since He instructs them to do exactly that?

Quoted out of context, are your serious? Paul is describing the state of ALL men, Jew and Gentile.

I believe you are missing something. What does Ro. 3:20 do to your explaining Ro.3:10 as hyperbole?

774

Freedom to Choose God

by UnDisfellowshipped in

come to the wedding.

' for i say to you that god is able to raise up children to abraham from these stones.

ellderwho

What kind of reasoning was that? The rightous sin , do they not?

Gumby tell me who are the righteous?

774

Freedom to Choose God

by UnDisfellowshipped in

come to the wedding.

' for i say to you that god is able to raise up children to abraham from these stones.

ellderwho

Do you think Adam could live a righteous life today, with the law being given in such detail? For example, did Adam love God, with all his heart, soul, and mind?

Good question, because if he did love God he would have listened.

774