.
been studying this for a while i think this is a good leverage point if theirs anything written.. ive checked usual spots gtr, babylon the great, insight, any help much appreciated.
Thank you both,
In Babylon the great has fallen, Im trying to reconcile the years given as Nebs rule begins in 624 followed by evil-merodach 2yrs,neriglassar 4 yrs, labashi-marduk 9mon, now 17 years for Nabonidus according to The WTBS. 624-43=582-2=580-4=576-9mon=575-17=559/558 Thanks again,
ellderwho
i was talking with a jw friend and he said that they believed they would live here on earth forever.
he told me a verse in psalms were it says "...the meek will inherit the earth.
" for those who believe in heaven, what does this verse mean?
Noko,
I stand corrected, I crossed referenced this to H7307 as I should have;
From H7306; wind; by resemblance breath, that is a sensible (or even violent) exhalation; figurativly life, anger unsubstantiality; by extention a region of the sky; by resemblance spirit, but only of a rational being (including its expression and functions):- air, anger blast, breath, breath, X cool, courage, mind X quarter, Xside, spirit ([-ual]), temptest, X vain,([whirl]) wind (-y).
The point I was making is that the jw will use this word "spirit" in this text to say that a mans "spirit" is his "life force" and thats it. My argument to this Jw was the fact that if "spirit" is translated as "breath" it actually chages the thought given. My position is man has a soul,spirit,body. This is not the Jw position:
But does each human have a spirit that goes on living as an intelligent personality after it ceases to function in the body? No; verse 19 answers that humans and beast "all have but one spirit." Based merely on human observation, no one can authoritatively answer the question raised in verse 21 regarding the spirit. Reasoning from the scriptures p383 para.2 . The fact that this makes reference to the spirit of a man an not the breath is deceiving.
The Jws rebutal was that v21nwt who is there knowing the spirit of the sons of man whether it is ascending upward....
Aguest states:Do you think there is a DIFFERENT spirit in them than in us?
I might remind you we were discussing the Holy spirit, and who it was inhabiting, and for what reason,
however, when Aguest refers me to Eccl. 3:19 in the NWT in refrences to sharing the same spirit or breath?
.Ah, I see: you think that animals cannot receive God’s spirit.......... Do you think there is a DIFFERENT spirit in them than in us
My point, is if the NWT is referenced to give biblical support it can very biased, in its wording. Let alone, confusing when trying to determine a point given.
Do we share the same breath as the beast? I say yes.As do scripture.
Do we have the same spirit as the beast, I believe scripture answers no.
If by making my second point to Aguest seemed harsh, I apologize.
Though, using the NWT in a biblical debate which in itself is highly scrutinized might not be the best choice to refer to for support.
ellderwho
.
been studying this for a while i think this is a good leverage point if theirs anything written.. ive checked usual spots gtr, babylon the great, insight, any help much appreciated.
Been studying this for a while I think this is a good leverage point if theirs anything written.
Ive checked usual spots GTR, babylon the great, Insight, any help much appreciated.
i was talking with a jw friend and he said that they believed they would live here on earth forever.
he told me a verse in psalms were it says "...the meek will inherit the earth.
" for those who believe in heaven, what does this verse mean?
Dearest Aguest
You were presenting a decent argument for your position of choce until you quoted the NWT in Eccl.
Ive had this same discussion with an Jw elder, the quote you took or the passage your using is revealing your trust in a badly translated Bible which is revealing the basis of your beliefs.(your theology)“For there is an eventuality as respects the sons of man, and an eventuality as respects the beast, and they have the SAME eventuality. As the one dies, so the other dies; and they all have but ONE SPIRIT, so that there is NO superiority of the man over the beast, for everything is vanity. All are going to one place. They have all come to be from the dust, and they are all returning to the dust. Who is there know the spirit of the sons of mankind, whether it is ascending upward; and the spirit of the beast, whether it is descending downward to the earth?”
The first is ONE SPIRIT I guess you put it in caps to really bring out your point.
Why is the NWT the ONLY bible that translates this word as spirit Of the four bibles I have on hand and 27 on CD. ROM none translates as spirit --H7306 ruach roo'-akh Strongs; A primitive root; properly to blow, that is to breath; only (literally) to smell or (by implication perceive (figuratively to anticipate, enjoy):-accept, smell, X touch, make of quick understanding.
Ask your self why? Do you think maybe it has something to do with slanted doctrine.
You know, and I know, why they do this, because they have a belief and then go the the scriptures and try and defend it.
And if they can not extract it they will actually change a word to accomplish this
You state:.
Do you think there is a DIFFERENT spirit in them than in us? Then you do not get the sense of what is written at Ecclesiastes 3:19-21:And your asking me if I get the sense of it ?
Do we share the same breath as the beast? I would say yes.
Changes your point NO?
As far as Judas your evading the point.
You state:
Did he not go to the Father and ASK which were to be the twelve?
Ive never read that ,so you will have to show me the verse.
John 17:6 "I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours, you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word.
Dearest aguest,
here you state: to mislead, if possible, even the chosen ones. We are "children of light
Who do you say is choosen? and where did you get the light?
Show me portions of scriptures not just one or two verses here and there that shows choice. You might come up with isolated verses pulled out of context, but what do you have? as in the chapters Ive shown you from Rom 8:8 thru 2Tim 1:8 its there and it teaches election. Time permitting theirs plenty more.
Romans shows us how desperate we are and you seem to think hes wrong, theres no confusing being dead. Its all by him.
I stated:
Paul speaking to the Galatians, 1:15
"But when God, who set me apart from birth, and called me by his grace, was pleased to reveal his Son in me so that I might preach him among the gentiles". So tell me where was Paul choice?
You state:Answer the question.What was Pauls choice?
And yet, Paul was not always "receptive" to that, was he? Didn't he have to have a CHANGE OF HEART?
There is also our “good” INTENTIONS, dear Ellderwho.
Im confused, what part of Pauls statements in Ro. 3:11 Do you not understand?
'There is none righteous, no not even one; there is none that understands, no one who seeks God.
12 All have turned away, they have together become worthless, there is no one who does good.
remember;this There is also our “good” INTENTIONS, dear Ellderwho.
This exemplifies double speak:
If he determines that our THOUGHTS and INTENTIONS… are good... while our flesh may NOT be... he... Christ... can... and will... make up our deficit. While WE may not be good, our THOUGHTS and INTENTIONS can be. Why? Because they come from the HEART. And if our heart is clean… then our thoughts and intentions can be clean. The thing is that we try to “fool” the holy spirit by SAYING that our thoughts and intentions are good… when they aren’t.
You go back and forth with good intentions, to bad flesh, to Christ filling in, to not being good, to good thoughts, to maybe a clean heart, to maybe clean thoughts, to trying to trick the Holy spirit of having good thoughts, to not having good thoughts?
Your not going to fool the Holy spirit, your fooling yourself with this kind of non-scriptual double speak. Oh, thats right the scriptures(God word) doesnt have authority over you.
Again, more non-biblical double speak;
But we can’t hide from the Spirit: if what is “in” us is NOT good… it is manifest to God and Christ. For NOTHING is hidden from them. On the other hand, if our thoughts and intentions ARE good… that, too, is manifest to them. That is why they don’t LOOK at the “outward appearance,”
This statement is typical of man trying to justify his lot in life.
If you would only accept the words of Gods written authority that you do not recongnize, maybe it would come clearer to you that Pauls words ring true:
'There is none righteous, no not even one; there is none that understands, no one who seeks God.
How this goes right over your head is amazing.
I leave with this, show me in scripture groups of verses strung together referring to each other ie.(Paul quoting OT) that give the idea of choice.
I challenge you, then you will have something to bring.
Up until now you have brought nothing to back your "choice" maybe one or two misapplied verses. Ive given you thirty or so verses that all tie together. All with the same principle. And thats not even digging very hard.
Dearest Aguest,One suggestion ,use that NWT as a guide for what you shouldnt read.
In Christ
ellderwho
i was talking with a jw friend and he said that they believed they would live here on earth forever.
he told me a verse in psalms were it says "...the meek will inherit the earth.
" for those who believe in heaven, what does this verse mean?
Aguest,
Sorry, Was in a rush to go to work and forgot the main question you had on ignoring your quoted scripture.
lets look at Matthew 7:7-11Isn’t that what Luke 11:13 says? What about Luke 11:10? Matthew 7:7-11?
But first look at v6- Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.
Their are times and certain places when its not worthwhile to say a word. This is a judgement we need to make.
We know there are swines and dogs in our society. What should we do?
Jesus tells us in the next verses,7-8
ask, and it shall be given you;seek and ye shall find; knock and it shall be opened unto you:
For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
Follow the context of scripture;
We rub shoulders every day in the "world" of non-believers. work play family and thieves ect.. what are we to do Jesus tells us to knock, ask seek. definitely refers to this problem.
now verse 12( golden rule)
Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you,do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prohets.
The question is when you meet someone new, how are you going to treat them? You dont know - you are not to judge what if he's a dog or swine, false teacher, how do you know? prayer!
Many people just lift this verse from the text and let it stand alone. Look at the word "therefore" it relates the golden rule to that which preceeds it or postulates it on prayer.
Only as we ask, seek and knock are we able to live in the light of the golden rule.
Why do you disregard the very “authority” you claim to be led by?
You see Aguest, we shouldnt hold ideas of doctrine , and then go to the bible and try to back them up, contextually your point is mis-applied to the scripture you quote.
You state:
You misunderstand the scripture your telling me to heed.Because I have one Leader, Christ. However, that you read John 5:39, 40 and yet do not get the SENSE of it… is NOT puzzling to me.
The verse is not an imperative but is an indicative. Example "You search the scriptures." Hes making a statement; He is not urging them to do something. He tells them that they search the scriptures thinking that in them they will find eternal life but they dont understand that the scriptures testify of Jesus.
Now lets look at who chooses who?
Ro.8:7 because the carnel mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God nor can it be.
8:14 for as many as are led by the spirit of God these are sons of God.
8:26 like wise the spirit also helps in our weakness for we do not know what we should pray for as we ought.
8:29 for whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his son.
8:30 moreover whom he predestined these he also called; whom he called; these he also justified...
Ro.9:11 For the children not yet being born, nor having any good or evil, but the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of him that calls.
9:13 as it is written Jacob I have loved Esau I have hated.
9:15 for he says to Moses I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy on, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion on
9:16 So it is not of mans desire or effort, but of God who shows mercy,
9:17 scripture says about Pharoah; I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power.
9:18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden
Ro 11:29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable
2Cor 1:9 yes we had the sentence of death in ourselves that we should not trust in ourselves, but in God who raised the dead,
4:6 for it is God who commanded light to shine out of the darkness, who has shone in our hearts to give the light of knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ
Gal. 1:15 But when it pleased God who seperated me from my mothers womb and called me through his grace
1:16 to reveal his son in me
Gal 4:8 But then indeed when you did not know God, you served those who by nature were not gods.
4:9 but now after you have known God or rather are known by God...
5:3 you have been called to liberty, only do not use the liberty as an opportunity for the flesh
Eph.1:4 just as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world.
1:5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to himself
1:11 In him we also have obtained as inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will
2:1 and you he made alive who were dead in trespass and sins
2:3 among whom also we all conducted ourselves in the lust of our flesh and in the mind and by nature children of wrath.
2:5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ
4:4 there is one body and one spirit just as you were called in one hope of your calling
Phil.1:6 being confident of this very thing that he who has begun a work in you, will complete it until the day of Christ
Col 1:26 the mystery which has been hidden from the ages and from generations but now has been revealed to his saints
1:27 to them God willed to make known them the riches of the glory of this mystery among the gentiles
2:13 and you being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, he made you alive together with him
3:12 therefore as the elect of God holy and beloved put on tender mercies
1Thes2:12 that you would walk worthy of God who calls you into his own kingdom
2Thes 2:13 but we are bound to give thanks to God always for you brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the begining chose you for salvation through the sanctification by the spirit
2:14 to which he called you by our gospel for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord
2Tim1:8 who has saved us an called us with a holy calling not according to our works but according to his own pleasure
Dr. Boyce gives a good example of choice. The example of a lion
who is by nature a carnivore(feeding on flesh) and you put a big bowl of oats in front of the lion. Will he eat the oats, Im sure he could chew on them, might be very dry for him, but the answer is no he will not eat the oats. He will not eat because it is not his nature.
With us, it is not our nature to seek God. However one can serve many gods that are out their, but to truly desire a intimate close relationship with the creator is just not in our nature to do so.
Thats why the examples of hearing are so important. We have gone back and forth on hearing often arguing past one another. you might agree that hearing the word of God starts faith. The ? has God turned on the spiritual ears?
Lazzarus was called forth by Jesus not because he felt sorry for the relatives so much than the glory of God.ie. could Lazzarus tell his dead bones to get going
Just a thought
in christ, ellderwho
i was talking with a jw friend and he said that they believed they would live here on earth forever.
he told me a verse in psalms were it says "...the meek will inherit the earth.
" for those who believe in heaven, what does this verse mean?
Dearest Aguest,
You asked me to re-read acts 10. Ive given you an explanation of your point. However you do not respond to the fact that your example of desire was not explained by the refuted point you were trying to make.
I must say that I find it interesting, dear Ellderwho, that although you claim the Bible as your “authority”, you don’t seem to wish to comment on the Biblical support
Look at it again;
Hmmmm... I would ask you then to re-read Acts 19:1-7. Note, it says there that Paul encountered some disciples who were BELIEVERS. And yet, these had not yet received HOLY SPIRIT. These had faith... and yet had not received holy spirit... And then, as a RESULT of such faith... they received holy spirit.... and thus, MORE faith. Did they DO anything... other than want it and receive it? They were wishing, as well as "receptive"... yes
I ask you what did they have faith in,(repentance)? and what actually were they believing in?
By your statement you are supposing they wished for something that they didnt even know existed.
I then ask you about your point of Judas, Your only response is;
I disagree: the choice starts... with us:Again, If Judas chooses not to betray Jesus, then Jesus' words at John 6:63 are false "have I not choose you? Yet one of you is a devil?
Why do you "choose" not to answer the example given? I believe you can not answer because your theology will not allow it.
You quote Acts 2
“Now when they heard this (Peter speaking) they were stabbed TO THE HEART and they said to Peter and the rest of the apostles: ‘Men, brothers, WHAT SHALL WE DO?’ Peter said to them, “Repent… and you WILL receive the free gift of the holy spirit.”
Do you realize what you are quoting,
Yes the message of Peter brought conviction,
This was for a people who had the Word of God, who had heard the message, who knew the prophecies.They had been going along in one direction, which was away from God. Even though they had a God given religion.
Why do you not quote v39 of Acts 2.
"For this promise is given unto you, and your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord God shall call."
Maybe it conflicts with your theology. The point, they were told what to do. They had to ask "what shall we do"
But you state:"These made a CHOICE…
Did they really, what then were their options before the sermon?
The point of the "donkey" was given to show you a very minor point about the fruitage of the spirit.
Did not God’s use of the donkey bring peace to Israel… a blessing rather than a cursing?
Okay, if you say so, the donkey had fruitages' of the spirit. Whats the end result was the donkey saved.
I then give Jonah as a example of choice, If, as you say we choose God, Why did this not work in the case of Jonah.
And you just dismiss the example with:
Then you go into Abraham;BUT… that was the case of Jonah.
I ask you: did Abraham have a CHOICE whether to offer up Isaac? COULD he have refused? If he COULDN’T, what really did he prove?
Ok, look at Gen 12:1 Here the LORD calls him. Whats your point?
Was it Abrahams "choice" to make his elderly wife able to have children agin? To establish the "great nation"
So the LORD almighty appears in a vision Gen 15:4-5 LORD tells him his offspring will be his heir.
Then takes him outside and shows him the stars.
v6 Abram beleives the LORD,and was credited to him as righteousness.
Did Abram decide one day, gee I think I want to have a covenant with Yahweh.
Lets look at another example you give Job.
You state about decission(Jobs) in this case:
then that person is on his or her OWN to “make a reply”, aren’t they?
Job states he "loathes his very life" Job 10:1
10:15 If I am guilty woe to me! Even if I am innocent, I cannot lift my head, for I am full of shame and drowned in my affliction.
Here Job knew God viewed him a faithful man. But with that said their was still nothing there inside a man.
v18 "why then did you bring me out of the womb? I wish I had died before any eye saw me.
Here Job knows their is nothing of himself.
You make this point
:These are the very ones who realize their NEED for God…
Back this thought up with scripture.
Paul speaking to the Galatians, 1:15
"But when God, who set me apart from birth, and called me by his grace, was pleased to reveal his Son in me so that I might preach him among the gentiles"
So tell me where was Paul choice?
As far as the conversion of Paul, did Paul stop on the road and look up and say "lord why am I persecuting you and your church.
Or did the Lord come to Paul and state "why do you persecute me"
v10. "The Lord called him in a vision"
v15 But the Lord said to Ananias, "Go, This man is my choosen instrument to carry my name before the gentiles and their kings"
Tell me again what was Pauls choice?
You state again;
it is our desire to OVERCOME our “nature”… that starts the process
Truly then if you can prove this thought then we have something to debate.
You have said I overlook the scripture you give.This is not the case.I have explained to you the examples you have presented as your argument.
One has to lean very hard on the idea that a person has a flickering of good inside a body that is not only dead in ones sin but, seperated from God by this sin.
You seem to think that wea re not totally seperated and that we can somehow muster up, or develope, or search our own sinful nature to try and find something we can come to God with, and scripturally it just isnt there, You can, however, search the scriptures but in the end what you wind up with is mans effort to reach out to God from this sinful state we can not get ourselves out of.
This is exactly what religion is.
Mans effort to re-link with God through repetition.
In Christ
ellderwho
i was talking with a jw friend and he said that they believed they would live here on earth forever.
he told me a verse in psalms were it says "...the meek will inherit the earth.
" for those who believe in heaven, what does this verse mean?
Noko,
In Acts 18:24 " And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus.
v25 "'This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John."
v26 " And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue; whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard , they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly"
v27 " And when he was disposed to pass into Achia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace."
v28 " For he mightily convinced the Jews, and that publicly, shewing by the scriptures that Jesus was Christ."
You state:
Didn't he speak of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit?
I looked in John and read chapter 3:25-30
"and they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all men come to him"
The disciples of John, I would assume are jealous.
John answers, A man can received nothing, except it be given him from heaven.Ye yourselves bear me witness , that I said, I am not the Christ, but that I am sent before him.
Noko:Jesus was expected by faithful people when he arrived
John 1:10,11 "He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.11.'He came to his own and his own received him not."
ellderwho
i was talking with a jw friend and he said that they believed they would live here on earth forever.
he told me a verse in psalms were it says "...the meek will inherit the earth.
" for those who believe in heaven, what does this verse mean?
Dearest Aguest,
You state:
Hmmmm... I would ask you then to re-read Acts 19:1-7. Note, it says there that Paul encountered some disciples who were BELIEVERS. And yet, these had not yet received HOLY SPIRIT. These had faith... and yet had not received holy spirit... And then, as a RESULT of such faith... they received holy spirit.... and thus, MORE faith. Did they DO anything... other than want it and receive it? They were wishing, as well as "receptive"... yes
Please, understand the background of the way Gods Holy spirt worked, and who knew of it.
These Ephesian "believers" needed further instruction on the message and ministry of Jesus Christ.Paul had never stayed in Ephesus, and had no ministry there.
Apollos had already been through there. But remember Apollos did not know about the death and ressurection of Jesus Christ until Aquilla and Priscilla had talked with him. All he(Apollos) had been preaching was the baptism of John. As a result of this, the people who had heard his preaching had been instructed only of the baptism of John and had not yet heard of the Holy Spirit.
"Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed?" is a poor translation. Both verbs receive and believe, are in the same tense. The American Standard Version translates the verse more accurately: " Did ye receive the Holy Spirit when ye believed?" Paul is asking them, "when you believed did you receive the Holy Spirit?" Their response was that they had not even heard that there was a Holy Spirit.
They were instructed up to the baptism of John. They had not been taught about the Lord Jesus and didnt know anything about Pentecost.
They were baptized but were not saved.
You state: And then, as a RESULT of such faith
I ask you what did they have faith in,(repentance)? and what actually were they believing in?
You state:they received holy spirit.... and thus, MORE faith. Did they DO anything... other than want it and receive it?
By your statement you are supposing they wished for something that they didnt even know existed.
As you state of my of my acquintance with "elementary" things,
I am simply giving you a "elementry" view of the scripture you trying to make a point from.
IN Christ
ellderwho
i was talking with a jw friend and he said that they believed they would live here on earth forever.
he told me a verse in psalms were it says "...the meek will inherit the earth.
" for those who believe in heaven, what does this verse mean?
Aguest,
You concur until this statement is made
You make a WONDERFUL point, that I am not sure even YOU get
Why would you agree on something I said, when your not sure if I understand what im saying.
I must sound pretty convincing.
But this is if one CHOOSES to do so. Like Judas.
If Judas chooses not to betray Jesus, then Jesus' words at John 6:63 are false "have I not choose you? Yet one of you is a devil?
Look at what you said:
Judas was one of these: he knew our Lord was God's son... yet, he CHOSE to put in his lot with Satan's agents
Your theology doesnt make sense.
The point I was making about King Cyrus was again misapplied.
The example given was to include but not limited to Gods spirit to urge people to act out things that God wanted done. And yes some of the results were signs of the fruitage of the spirit.but not always.
Not in the case of the Donkey used by the Lord spirit.
Aguest:I beg to differ with you.
About what then?
You state;I am not sure how this example applies, other than although Jonah didn't want to BE chosen, God
My point missed again, Was Jonah able to choose? NO
You state:for it is not the heart of FLESH that I speak of. In the instance YOU gave, the heart (of flesh) IS of no use at all
Again, John 6:63 Jesus clearly states: the flesh counts for nothing, notta
Why you still hold on to the thought that there is a little bit, inside of a man, a little hope, a slight, slim chance theres a flicker of good intention in mans heart, to draw himself to realize he needs God.
When I said:(this would include the heart).
I was simply paraphasing what Jesus words meant. In John 6:63 And it still stands, their is nothing in the heart of man. He is at emnity with God
I wrote:
Without the Holy Spirit we can not even see a need for a new life. John 14:17 (the world cannot except the spirit of truth).You wrote: Again, I must disagree. It is the desire to BE "recreated" that one asks for a "new heart". Such "new heart" is "made"... by holy spirit Your putting the horse before the cart By that statement your really saying a person gets the spirit of God when they ask.(horse/cart theory) Unless you've known people of the world that can accept the spirit of truth. The same here you state:
they could not hear because they refused to hear. Their hearts... had grown unreceptive... and they did not ask to have a new heart created inagain here:
Had they WANTED to hear,They could not hear a thing if their life depended on it (literally)! You still hold that they could have heard but that they refused to hear his words. If thats the case why then did Jesus ask the question "why dont you understand my words Jesus knew they heard him, this had nothing to do with their hearts, because of the fact the father had not abled them as Jesus states in John 6:65 If that is not the reason, then why does Jesus in 6:45 say to the Jews while reffering to the bread that comes from heaven, He states "stop grumbling among yourselves No one can come to me unless the father who sent me draws him... v45 "as it is written in the prophets: they will all be taught by God' Your theology-- you are doing something without the father, because you've stated in the past;
And all one needs do is want to BE saved
We CAN make our hearts RECEPTIVE... to the best of our ability..Im really trying to understand your theology but it just doesnt make sense, Ive stated:
Without the Holy Spirit we can not even see a need for a new life. John 14:17 (the world cannot except the spirit of truth).You state:
Again, I must disagree. It is the desire to BE "recreated" that one asks for a "new heartYour disput is with scripture not I.
You state: the Bible... has no "authority" over me.Why you feel this way is puzzling? 2Timothy 3:15 "and how from infancy you have known the holy scriptures which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture is God breathed is this the part that has no "authority" you state "Confidence in the scriptures... will put you back under Law,
What you follow... is the word written on paper in delible inkNo, what I follow is God breathed
Even your "scriptures".."All scripture is God breathed" 2Tim 3:16 You state:
but it is one's desire FOR God's spirit... to DO so... that starts the process.Your doing this on your own again. Scripture clearly states " No comes to the son unless the father draw him" You quote Ps.51 Because we are born as sinners (51:5) our natural desire is to please ourselves rather than God v.11 David has the "spirit" and still wants a pure heart. The same for me for I know my heart is wicked. But How did Paul view this: Ro.7:18 For I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out.19 For what I do is not the good I want to do ; no, the evil I do not want to do-this I keep on doing, You see there is no good in us. period. In Christ ellderwho
i am going to be sharing with a jw and i want to bring up the doctrine of the resurrection of the people of sodoma.
i have heard that the watchtower has contradicted itself by changing this doctrine several times, and in one of the books they say that the "new light" can never contradict the past doctrine, but only build on it i think.
well, post whatever information you guys have on this topic.
Shotgun:And they don't appreciate when you say does the bible not say he who is faithful in the least of these things will be faithful in much.
No they dont appreciate being told anything. Or if it sounds like your teaching them, they shut down.
Taking the role of a student is what I found works best. The approach is very calculated when having a "bookstudy" with the elders.
Really then if you lay down the rules like " this isnt about my faith" that takes the pressure off of yourself were you dont have to get into what the specifics of your beliefs are. Because there are attack points they'll go after "trinity" etc... (which they are experts in)
Ive mentioned before in a post somewhere, that Ive been studying the "What does God require" with my moms husband "Elder Bob" For I think its 6 or 8 months now, and were only in chapter 4.
We went round and around in the one chapter I think its the 2nd one about " God transferred the life of Michael into Mary. Well, my big question to him was, what came down from heaven??
I cant tell you how many times the ol' glasses came off the head an got slammed on the table in anger because he just could not give me a straight answer that made any sense. I held his feet to the fire for about a month it seemed.
Then I would bring up "well I guess Im stumbling over the rock that the builders rejected." And I have to wait on Jah to draw me to the son.
Using their own material is another plus, in fact I refer to my NWT so much I can find things faster in that than my other Bibles.
ellderwho
