Posts by ellderwho

774

Freedom to Choose God

by UnDisfellowshipped in

come to the wedding.

' for i say to you that god is able to raise up children to abraham from these stones.

ellderwho

D.Dog,
Jesus quickened my spirit, the same way he raised Lazarus from the dead. He didn't offer Lazarus a choice of life or death,

Dog, didnt Jesus shake Lazarus a little bit and whisper in his ear "hey Im enlighting you, would you like to get up now"???

I think another good scripture to look at is the exchange between Jesus and Nicodemus;Jo.3:4-7

4 Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born, can he?" 5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water R128 and the Spirit he cannot enter into the R129 kingdom of God. 6 "That R130 which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 "Do not be amazed that I said to you, `You must be born again.' F42

Why didnt Jesus tell Nicodemus your going to have to choose only after the spirit "enlightens" you??

Choice is the only thing that appears to turn salvation into a conditional gift!

E

774

Freedom to Choose God

by UnDisfellowshipped in

come to the wedding.

' for i say to you that god is able to raise up children to abraham from these stones.

ellderwho

UnD,

Your positions seems to rest wholly on this enlightenment issue, IMHO a kinda of grace for a grace period for man to ponder the fact that the Father has given him an "insight" to a relationship with himself(God). And man is going to choose to take the lifesaver or drown.

I find several, many problems with this understanding you present. In the end man has a tiny little bit of works...... He has to choose.

If Im "enlightened" and now I have this special insight into a relationship with the savior, whats stopping me from putting off the chioce until I feel like Im ready to "clean-up" and take God up on his offer.

Why not just wait till a deathbed confession then I could get all the fleshly sinning out of the way, or I could wait until Im later on in years maybe late 70s as a target age to take God up on his offer.

Why not, I know the "lifesaver" is floating next to me the rest of my life and all I have to do is grab it in case of a near death experience.

UnD,

You have proven to me, even when shown from a simple example as Mannassehs' that no matter what the scripture clearly states, you repeat the same verse back to me with your chioce slant.

You continue to admit that God chooses to draw, but deny that its Gods will, that God gets what he wants. Regardless of what man thinks he wants.

Then you try to blanket the issue with God wants all to be saved thinking, and Jesus died for everyone, without understanding that God Has already predestined his choosing and we can somehow effect this choice that was made before the founding of the earth.

To debate scripture with you is a waste of time. You feel if you show me 25 verses that imply a chioce and I show you 20 verses that dont, then you have somehow won.

In the case of Pharoah you must assume a very very vital part of your postion.

In the case of Gods sovereignty you dont have to re-invent the wheel, in the corridor time, and Gods insight on time, can we agree that God knows when he draws someone its not for a choice game thats being played out.

E

774

Freedom to Choose God

by UnDisfellowshipped in

come to the wedding.

' for i say to you that god is able to raise up children to abraham from these stones.

ellderwho

Undis,

From the Bible, it appears that God never did enlighten Pharoah, or if He did, Pharoah rejected God.

Wait a minute, didnt you say;

God desires ALL HUMANS to be saved -- Jesus died for ALL HUMANS:

Doesnt Pharoah get a chance? Or how bout Esau?

Well, how did anyone in the Bible choose not to bow down to false gods?

Undis, did you NOT read the passage? God states I HAVE RESERVED FOR MYSELF. What part of reserved infers they had a choice?

What about this Scripture in Joshua?
Joshua 24: 14-15: "Now therefore, fear the L ord , serve Him in sincerity and in truth, and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the River and in Egypt. Serve the L ord ! And if it seems evil to you to serve the L ord , choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the L ord ."

What about it? Does his household have a choice?

Deuteronomy 30:15-20:......... Are you saying that those Israelites did NOT actually have freedom to choose, even though the Bible says that they did?

Is it in our power to love God?

Ellderwho said:
2. Why was Israel seeking an unable to obtain it?
I'll let the Scriptures answer:
Romans 11:8: "GOD GAVE THEM A SPIRIT OF STUPOR, EYES TO SEE NOT AND EARS TO HEAR NOT, DOWN TO THIS VERY DAY."

Stay in context undis, dont jump right to verse 8 without considering what verse 5 states;

5 In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a R531 remnant according to God's gracious F184 choice.

Do you see why Israel was unable to obtain it?

This is the same problem you had with Mannesseh in 2Chron.33:10-12 Your giving man the credit.

Jesus Himself explained that God does NOT choose to enlighten all people:
Mark 4:11: And He said to them, "To you it has been given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God; but to those who are outside, all things come in parables,

Your point is weak.

I never said that anyone is "entitled" to a choice. I base my beliefs on the Scriptures, the Word of God.
The Bible shows that God chooses whom He wants to enlighten, and then they are given a choice and are given time to choose whether or not to repent.
I think the Scriptures I posted above should answer your questions.
Ellderwho said:
Undis you want God on your terms not his.
I take God at HIS WORD. I base my beliefs and faith ONLY on His Inspired, Holy, Infallible Scriptures.
Can you refute ANY of my statements using the Scriptures?

Undis, Ive showed you refutations to your arguments, you continue to give empty statements like;

From the Bible, it appears

It appears what? Appears to you? It appears you dismiss Gods sovereignty when shown a rebuttal to your so-called choice after enlightenment. I too will not take your test. I suggest a long study of Romans 9 when pondering this thought of yours;

* Does God DESIRE that all men be saved, or does God only desire that certain men be saved who were foreordained for salvation?

Lets stick to one question at a time and work with it. BTW you never answered about Mannessahs choice. E.

774

Freedom to Choose God

by UnDisfellowshipped in

come to the wedding.

' for i say to you that god is able to raise up children to abraham from these stones.

ellderwho

Undis,

Weve been through this before and you still never answered by your definition " when was Pharaoh given a choice????

Ro. 9:16,17 16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, R455 but on God R456 who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "FOR R457 THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT F158 THE WHOLE EARTH."

Of Ro. 11:3-8

Or R528 do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel? 3 "Lord, THEY R529 HAVE KILLED YOUR PROPHETS, THEY HAVE TORN DOWN YOUR ALTARS, AND I ALONE AM LEFT, AND THEY ARE SEEKING MY LIFE." 4 But what is F183 the divine response to him? "I R530 HAVE KEPT for Myself SEVEN THOUSAND MEN WHO HAVE NOT BOWED THE KNEE TO BAAL." 5 In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a R531 remnant according to God's gracious F184 choice. 6 But if R532 it is by grace, it is no longer on F185 the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace. 7 What then? What Israel R533 is seeking, it has not obtained, but those F186 who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened; R534 8 just as it is written, "GOD R535 GAVE THEM A SPIRIT OF STUPOR, EYES TO SEE NOT AND EARS TO HEAR NOT, DOWN TO THIS VERY DAY."

1.Explain how the seven thousand "CHOOSE" not to bow the knew before Baal.

2. Why was Israel seeking an unable to obtain it?

3. Why are those choosen, do obtain it?

4. Why are the rest harden with no "CHOICE"?

5. Why would God give them a spirit of stupor if they were entitled to a choice?

6. Why would God make their eyes not to see, if they were entitled to a choice?

7. Why would God give them ears that were unable to hear, if they were entitled to a choice?

Undis you want God on your terms not his.

E.

108

Ressurection question

by Sookie in

i'm hoping someone can help me out.

based upon the belief that death acquits a person of sin, do jws believe that all those (jws and non-jws) who die before armageddon arrives will be ressurected?

just for my reference, can someone show me where this can be found in the bible?

ellderwho

Elderwho, if one scripture from the Bible is not enough to corroborate truth then you're going to have to throw out a lot of mainstream Christian ideas. Your ideas concerning I Corinthians 15:29 are just an interpretation, and arguing interpretive capacities is as pointless as arguing with a box of hair.

Dan;What about the practice of "baptism for the dead," alluded to by Paul (see 1 Corinthians 15:29) and adopted by the Latter-day Saints (see D&C 127-28)

Dan; Once again, you put words in y mouth. It doesn't matter if there are three, one or negative eleven scriptures that support something in my church, we have continued revelation; we don't need anything to be in the Bible.

Ellderwho; Dan, Ive asked you serval times to fortify this teaching of your church and other examples of vicarious actions you claim that are in the Bible, this Bible word of God you claim to enjoy reading. If you love to read about the Jewish traditions and early Christian "ways" why cant you produce these other vicarious actions you speak of?

The very next post;

Elderwho, he has shared it with us through his word. I'm tired of pointing out this fact only to have you ignore it: I believe he still reveals His word through prophets and Apostles.

elder, I'm trying to show that the early church fathers believed in baptism for the dead, which is what y'all asked for. I didn't cut and paste, I just copied the whole thing directly from the site.

Ellderwho; No where in scripture does Christ teach this idea. Again this statement defies Christs words "you must be born again of the SPIRIT"
To top all that off what you "pasted" is just comentary not Gods word, BIG difference Dan. This is the sad part of it, trading the truth for a lie.

The very next post

I never said it was God's word, and you didn't ask for God's word. You asked for evidence of the existence of this doctrine in the early church, and that's exactly what this is. Please pay closer attention to what you ask for.

I never said it was God's word, and you didn't ask for God's word.
he has shared it with us through his word
Its OK Dan..
Please pay closer attention to what you ask for.

Dan;Two completely unrelated topics there, big guy.

How so big guy?

108

Ressurection question

by Sookie in

i'm hoping someone can help me out.

based upon the belief that death acquits a person of sin, do jws believe that all those (jws and non-jws) who die before armageddon arrives will be ressurected?

just for my reference, can someone show me where this can be found in the bible?

ellderwho

I never said it was God's word, and you didn't ask for God's word.

Elderwho, he has shared it with us through his word

Its OK Dan..

Please pay closer attention to what you ask for.

Pay closer attention to what you state E

108

Ressurection question

by Sookie in

i'm hoping someone can help me out.

based upon the belief that death acquits a person of sin, do jws believe that all those (jws and non-jws) who die before armageddon arrives will be ressurected?

just for my reference, can someone show me where this can be found in the bible?

ellderwho

I'm trying to show that the early church fathers believed in baptism for the dead, which is what y'all asked for.

OK lets look at what you "copied" and then you "pasted" from the Mormon site,

John's function in the spirit world, like the Savior's, was identical with his mission on this earth. Yet his very special mission here was to baptize.

The Bible does not teach this equality. Christ is the subsitute for our sins.

What is perfectly clear is that the apostles while they were still living performed an ordinance?the earthly ordinance of baptism in water?which concerned the welfare of those who had already died.

How does this concern the dead?

That it was an earthly baptism which could only be performed with water is emphatically stated in the sentences immediately preceding those cited: "It is necessary, he said, for them to come up through the water in order to be made alive;

This takes the idea that one is made alive by baptism. When in fact the Bible by Jesus own words clearly teaches us we are made alive by the spirit. By your idea or beliefs in what is on this Mormon site you have to agree that flesh is giving birth to spirit by this "baptism." Thus discounting Christs' words "spirit gives birth to spirit"

for otherwise none can enter the Kingdom of God?therefore even the dead receive the seal? The seal is of course, the water." 116

No where in scripture does Christ teach this idea. Again this statement defies Christs words "you must be born again of the SPIRIT"

To top all that off what you "pasted" is just comentary not Gods word, BIG difference Dan. This is the sad part of it, trading the truth for a lie.

108

Ressurection question

by Sookie in

i'm hoping someone can help me out.

based upon the belief that death acquits a person of sin, do jws believe that all those (jws and non-jws) who die before armageddon arrives will be ressurected?

just for my reference, can someone show me where this can be found in the bible?

ellderwho

Dan,

To quote from; "Foundation for Ancient Research and Mormon Studies" Is un-impressive.

To quote more fully a passage already cited from the Epistle of Barnabas, " A great favorite with the early Christians was a passage from the apocryphal Book of Sirach: "Descending into the other world," says the old hymn, Christ "writes Eusebius, citing a popular formula, ." 103 Tertullian is more specific, " Tertullian always denotes

More church fathers

says Irenaeus, Christ nonetheless asks Origen:
leads one to conclude with Clement:
. Origen says John "died before him, so "John the Baptist died first," wrote Hippolytus,
Pastor of Hermas, one of the most trustworthy guides to the established beliefs of the early church, "I think," says Clement of Alexandria, commenting on this passage,

You do a big cut and paste from your favorite Mormon site. Trying to make a reference to baptizing the dead and you fail. You start off with one (1) scripture from Peter about preaching to the dead not baptizing, preaching! Is this all you got? Then you state;

I'm tired of pointing out this fact only to have you ignore it

What exactly are you pointing out? the fact that you cut an paste early church fathers that infer NOTHING about baptizing of the dead. Weak Dan, very weak. Where's the scripture that teach these "vicarious actions" you speak of. And why are you unable to use the the word of God. Talk about being tired and ingnorance, show your teachings Dan, how many times must it be asked. Looks like your relying on, as you put it "extra scriptural assumptions" to develope doctrine. E

17

Joan Cetnar from PFO Ministries

by ellderwho in

this past weekend my wife and i had the privilege of having joan cetnar stay in our home for the weekend to attend a counter-cult seminar at deputydogs(forum poster)church.. she is a forth generation witness, who lived a few miles from bethel on her familys farm.

she told stories of her youth, like when the brass from the towers would come to her familys farm for a little r & r. these are the likes of covington, knorr to name a few.

i sat there in amazment listening to her tell these stories with such insight on the upper echelon of the org.

ellderwho

Gumb,

I've never heard the story. But the link should suffice. Joan is an awesome lady who speaks with force. And her son Phil is wealth of knowledge on cults in general. I wish I had the relationship with my mom that Phil has with his mom. My mom still in the kingdumb.

Joan is an absolute pioneer for the exjw cause.Watching Joan give her testimony cut me to my soul.

More churchs need to look at what Deputy Dogs church is doing....opening its doors to the idea that its a good thing to help the church understand what the cults stand for and how to witness effectively to the cults. Sorry for the rant

E

17

Irritating Mormon guy

by Mulan in

i have a young man emailing me.

he is a mormon.

at first he emailed to me because he found my cousin's story on randy watter's website and my email addy is in the story.

ellderwho

Oh, I thought this thread was going to be about the poster "dan"..

LOL. me too