Posts by ellderwho

22

I Need Ideas

by TowerWatch in

i am working on a david letterman type of ?top ten list?

to publicize my seminars with local churches.

sort of the top ten reasons a pastor would want his parishioners to become more familiar with the beliefs and practices of jehovah's witnesses.

ellderwho

The problem I see is that mainline Christians do not know enough about their own faith let alone the belief system of the Jw to at least shut the Jw down in their tracks.

IMHO theres plenty of information out there to dismantle the Jw doctrines, but thats to much like work for "joe christian"

The fact that a Jw can awe "joe christian" at the door with scriptural smoke and mirror is enough for the "householder" to slam the door and forget about it. (reinforcing to the Jw "they dont want the truth")

There are many, many pastors who just do not know how to handle the Jw. Basically the average christian does not want to get invovled.

Were I live if you post a seminar about Witnessing to Jws in any church, you might get 1-5 people interested. Which is sad.

I recently posted a thread "do jws really want to study" because Ive found at least where I live they really do not want a study, or Im blackballed some how. The last couple of ladies that came to my door actually were holding "reasoning from scriptures" while trying to answer simple questions. But to someone who doesnt know much about the Jw could be bowled over by the appearance of "knowledge".

Ive studied with my moms elderhusband for 2+ years. I once veiwed him as a scriptural giant but after all the smoke and mirrors were cleared away, he really had nothing in scripture to support his position and after while it became almost laughable to sit and listen while he played spin-doctor with the scriptures.

All the while never answering the direct question. Granted this was a family member so I did take it easy on him but not all the time. All I really wanted him to do was think for himself.

Good luck with your seminar.

E.

22

I Need Ideas

by TowerWatch in

i am working on a david letterman type of ?top ten list?

to publicize my seminars with local churches.

sort of the top ten reasons a pastor would want his parishioners to become more familiar with the beliefs and practices of jehovah's witnesses.

ellderwho

I agree with Andy,

Im third gen. out for 20+ years although I was Da-ed as a non-baptised dub, that never interupted the relationship with Mom. She's still in. At the time that was a no/no.

I ve thrown basically every theological virus at her (and managed to deliver the gospel) and maybe its found a chink in the armor, only time will tell.

She's emotionally tied to the cult.

The fact remains if Bethel wanted the r/f to blieve in the trinity they could do in about 3 years.

I hold the gray hairs in Bethel responsible. A fish rots from the head down.

E.

774

Freedom to Choose God

by UnDisfellowshipped in

come to the wedding.

' for i say to you that god is able to raise up children to abraham from these stones.

ellderwho

I believe you used this illustration before,

If a man is drowning (because of his own mistake), and then someone offers his hand to pull him out of the water, if that drowning man accepts the hand and is saved, does the drowning man have any merit because he grabbed hold of the saving hand?
Just because that drowning person decided to grab onto the saving hand does NOT mean at all that he deserved to be saved or that he did some "good work" that entitled him to be saved.
Grabbing onto the saving hand is NOT a "good work" that entitles anyone to be saved.

I honestly understand the point you are trying to make. It does not work and I'll show you why.

Is the drowning man alive?

UD, when as an un-believer I myself was NOT alive. Therefore how could I make a choice to accept or reject the hand that saves?

You are stuck in your thinking that Jesus made you savable as DDog pointed out.

If your illustration is correct, make it work with what Paul describes the natural state of man to be.

Romans 3:11
THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS,
THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;

Romans 3:12
ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS;
THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD,
THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE." So the "drowning" man does not understand what the saving hand is for, so why would he grab it?

The "drowning" man is not seeking a saving hand.

Just because that drowning person decided to grab onto the saving hand does NOT mean at all that he deserved to be saved or that he did some "good work" that entitled him to be saved.

Why not, he saved himself. Look at Romans

Romans 8:7
because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so,

The drowning man has no idea what the hand is for, and does not want it.

Furthermore you said of the death bed confession of faith, "that if I were truely, truely repentive" I could

in effect grab hold of the "saving hand" So I can save myself. Of course if I want to.

7. Knowing I was enlightened once in my life, can I make a death-bed confession to God and follow-up the original enlightenment?
Only if you are truly repentant and humble yourself before God, and believe in Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior and that He died for you.

Are you saying that the Bereans were born again BEFORE they became believers? I'm trying to understand exactly what you're saying.

Undis, you continue to deflect questions about what the Bible states.

Show where the Bereans get "enlightened" by God and have time to accept or reject his calling.

Or as you would have it, the Bereans are drowning and God is giving his hand to see if one of the Bereans is going to decide to grab the hand or sink.

Show me with your illustration how it applies to the following verses.

Romans 9:10
And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac;

Romans 9:11
for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God's purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls,

Romans 9:12
it was said to her, "THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER."

Romans 9:13
Just as it is written, "JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED."

With your illustration, why is Esau not offered the "savinghand" because of his drowning?

Humans are saved only because of JESUS CHRIST.
Humans are saved only because of CHRIST's Sacrifice, Shed Blood, Resurrection, and LIFE!
Humans are saved only because CHRIST FIRST desires that they be saved.

What about Esau? Why does your thinking leave him without the hand that keeps him from drowning?

E.

774

Freedom to Choose God

by UnDisfellowshipped in

come to the wedding.

' for i say to you that god is able to raise up children to abraham from these stones.

ellderwho

LIttleToe:

My understanding of regeneration begins and ends with Gods sovereignty. With that "He is the potter"and the potters will is always done. (Not trying to preach to choir)

The whole idea that man can make a choice puts a termendous amout of presure on man. If Im left with choice I will do as the Bible says I will do. Opt out of the relationship with God, I cannot keep up my end of the agreement.

If God chooses me, Im his forever.

The Arminian IMHO will always end up with a "works salvation". Theres no way around it.

E.

774

Freedom to Choose God

by UnDisfellowshipped in

come to the wedding.

' for i say to you that god is able to raise up children to abraham from these stones.

ellderwho

Undis, Also, just curious, but haven't you been using the King James Version all the way through this Thread until I posted a Verse that you didn't like the wording of?

Most all of scripture I post is Nasb. Your hanging most of your idea on "readiness of mind" Im simply showing you other words that work, in that sentence. Again if the sentence does not state the word mind your arguement falls.

Actually I use the Niv more than my Nasb. Only because I know where things are. Some of the comentary in the Niv is a little slanted, but, it somehow turned into my favorite.

In all those translations, the Bereans are using their Spirit-enlightened MINDS to see what the TRUTH is, and then to make a decision on whether to believe something based on FACTS and TRUTH.

I believe you are reading a little to much into the text. You keep saying these Bereans must have been enlightened. The problem is, scripture does not state this.

I would consider how Jesus handled the religious leaders in John.

John 5:39
"You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me;

John 8:42
Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me.

John 8:43
"Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word.

Did not the religious leaders have ears on their heads?

This is the thought in a nutshell;

John 8:47
"He who is of God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not hear them, because you are not of God."

How do you get around the fact that Jesus gives life to who he chooses? Its not us who choose, wouldnt the text say a little about this matter of choice.

John 5:21
"For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son also gives life to whom He wishes

The Bereans could study all they want to, Just like the Pharisees' and Nicodemus was told he has to be born again. You must agree that the birth in reference does not originate with man. And if your spirit is Born of Gods spirit how can this reject itself?

John backs this up here;

John 6:37
"All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.
It does'nt say " all the Father gives me will decide on their own and then come to me" If your given to Christ, why doesnt the text say you can reject this?

1 John 5:1
Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him.

Born of who?

The "mind" of the inner man is the spirit of man.

I disagree,

1 Thessalonians 5:23
Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

What catagory do you put the mind in, in a unbeliever? You did say we are born with a dead spirit.

Which I agree.

E.

15

Satan's Direct Attack

by UnDisfellowshipped in

just another watchtower contradiction!

the watchtower, june 1, 2003 issue, page 20, paragraph 11:

"gog of magog is identified as satan the devil in his debased condition since 1914. as a spirit creature, he cannot carry out his attack directly, but will use human agencies to do his deeds.

ellderwho

Interesting find Undis,

LOL@ Gumbaggedon

E.

774

Freedom to Choose God

by UnDisfellowshipped in

come to the wedding.

' for i say to you that god is able to raise up children to abraham from these stones.

ellderwho

Ddog,

It seems that he believes that salvation is based on mans will, when God looks down through time he chooses the people that do the works of a Christian

Even with this thinking, when the reasoning is carried out, in the end does not God already know the choice that is going to take place.

Or is God a spectator?

Never mind the 60 some verses(nt) that I recall have inferences that plainly spell out election.

And as Paul describes our nature even when elected, the termendous struggles with the flesh.

How about Jesus statement for even if you think of adultery you have commited sin. Matt. 5:28

On that note, I'd like to know how to keep my thoughts from sinning.

Look at this reasoning(undis) concerning the mind of Paul:

So, was Paul saying that his mind was absolutely corrupt and part of his "flesh", in which nothing good dwells? Obviously not.

Do ya think Jesus was reffering to everyone except Paul?

The "carnal mind" must mean the sinful and corrupted "flesh".

Of the Bereans:

Were their Spirit-enlightened minds totally and absolutely corrupt and incapable of deciding whether to believe the Gospel? Obviously not

I guess Im not as righteous as those Bereans, but wait, not all the Bereans were saved. Verse 12 of Acts 17 says many believed, doesnt say all. So I guess some were just a little corrupt and just a little bit incapable to decide.

I believe the Spirit enlightens believers when he Quickens or makes them alive in Christ (Romans 8:11).

I agree, I'd still like to see the verses that teach a time period to ponder the Holyspirits calling. Because if that is the case, the heck with this Christianity Ive got some big time sinning to get in without all the guilt before my death bed confession.

E.

774

Freedom to Choose God

by UnDisfellowshipped in

come to the wedding.

' for i say to you that god is able to raise up children to abraham from these stones.

ellderwho

You choose to ignore certain Verses in Romans in favor of other Verses in Romans, as if certain Chapters are more inspired than others.

Your refering to the following?

Romans 1:21-28: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. And even as they did not like to retain God in [their] knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
Romans 2:4-5: Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

Perhaps I did ignore Chapter 1:

Romans 1:1
Paul, a bond-servant of Christ Jesus, called as an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God,

Acts 9:15
But the Lord said to him, "Go, for he is a chosen instrument of Mine, to bear My name before the Gentiles and kings and the sons of Israel; But doesnt Paul have a time period to decide?

16. I will show him how much he must suffer for My name's sake."

You quote Romans 1:21-28 and say I choose to ignore those verses. I choose not to comment because they do not pertain to election.

Look at verse 20 the one you left out to prove choice.

Romans 1:20
For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

But you make bold words that you feel show choice:

Romans 1:21-28: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful

So what, most of mankind have heard of the concept of a God/creator/divine being.

Look at verse 32 this sums up Pauls point:

Romans 1:32
and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.

Romans 2:4-5:

I dont see a point by Ro. 2:4-5

But because Paul says you "despisest thou the riches of his goodness" this is mans nature to reject God. Do you at least agree with that?

Romans 2:14
For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,

Romans 2:15
in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,

From the above can you keep the Ten Comandments?

I cant, people who try to do good without Gods Spirit are a Law unto themselves. But they cant even keep those laws that are unto themselves.

Read the rest of chapter 2, to get the full thrust of Pauls message.

E.

774

Freedom to Choose God

by UnDisfellowshipped in

come to the wedding.

' for i say to you that god is able to raise up children to abraham from these stones.

ellderwho

Your response to the dilema of mind/spirit relationship:

The Scriptures show different views of a human's "mind":

Acts 17:11-12: These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few.
Those Bereans had not yet been Born Again, because Romans Chapter 10 says that before a person can be saved, he must believe in Jesus.
So, before those Bereans were Born Again, they, with all "readiness of MIND" searched the Scriptures to see what the Truth was, and then when they discovered the Truth of the Gospel (after being enlightened by The Spirit), they became believers and were Born Again.

Acts 17:11 Nasb
Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so.

Acts 17:11 Basic English Bible
Now these were more noble than the Jews of Thessalonica, for they gave serious attention to the word, searching in the holy Writings every day, to see if these things were so.

Acts 17:11 Douay-Rheims
Now these were more noble than those in Thessalonica, who received the word with all eagerness, daily searching the scriptures, whether these things were so.

Acts 17:11 Weymouth NT

The Jews at Beroea were of a nobler disposition than those in Thessalonica, for they very readily received the Message, and day after day searched the Scriptures to see whether it was as Paul stated.

Act 17:11 NIV " great eagerness"

What do the above translations do to your "readiness of mind" theory?

Whats really amazing is how you change the meaning of 'carnel mind'

In Romans Chapter 7, Paul says equates his spirit ["inward man"] with his "mind", as being opposed to his "flesh" (sinful corrupted nature).
So, was Paul saying that his mind was absolutely corrupt and part of his "flesh", in which nothing good dwells? Obviously not.
Romans 8:7: Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Paul said that the "carnal mind" is enmity against God and cannot be subject to God's Law.
The "carnal mind" must mean the sinful and corrupted "flesh".

Are you sure you want to say that the ' carnel mind' means corrupted flesh?

So, was Paul saying that his mind was absolutely corrupt and part of his "flesh", in which nothing good dwells? Obviously not.

So then my brain is not carnel?

My thoughts are not carnel?

If by reading Romans 8:2-11 you feel that you are in control your mind, and that your mind is NOT carnel because you said Paul was not reffering to his mind, then what was Paul struggling with in Ro. 7

Romans 8:2
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.

Romans 8:3
For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,

Romans 8:4
so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

Romans 8:5
For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
Romans 8:6
For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,

Romans 8:7
because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so,

Romans 8:8
and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

Romans 8:9
However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.

Romans 8:10
If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.

Romans 8:11
But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

So, before those Bereans were Born Again, they, with all "readiness of MIND" searched the Scriptures to see what the Truth was, and then when they discovered the Truth of the Gospel (after being enlightened by The Spirit), they became believers and were Born Again..

Were their Spirit-enlightened minds totally and absolutely corrupt and incapable of deciding whether to believe the Gospel? Obviously not.

Where in Acts 17 does it indicate that the Bereans were "enlightened" ?

Basically the Bereans is a good example of how a Christian today should be when hearing a sermon, if they have a question about the content, then go directly to scripture to see if it is true.

How you develope a doctrine of enlightenment from the above scripture is very hard to follow since the verses you use say nothing about enlightenment or a time period to ponder said enlightenment.

2: When people know God (have been enlightened by Him), and then they reject Him, THEN God darkens their hearts, and gives them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, and God gives them up to a reprobate mind, because they did not keep God in their knowledge

Romans 9:15
For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION."

Romans 9:16
So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.

Romans 9:17
For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH."

Romans 9:18
So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

Romans 9:19
You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?"

3: God leads people to repentance, and then they can reject Him, and by doing so, treasure up wrath for themselves because of their impenitent heart.

Sorry, your arguement is with scripture not me.

Again you never answer the question where in scripture is it taught that I have a time period to ponder the Holyspirits enlightening?

And what part of me decides?

E.

139

Those big bad Bible Students

by RR in

jw
friends

oh, those big bad bible students, taking over the world, a big threat to christianity as we know it.

that was the gist of rev.

robert c. hill, christian apologetic, who decided that there wasn't enough being done by the christian community to combat the resurgence of "russellism".

ellderwho

The biggest insult was to have an athiest lead the praise and worship service, and everyone including the sponsors seemed pleased with that! It wasa mockery!

Who was that?( the athiest) Who are the sponsers?

E.