Posts by ellderwho

774

Freedom to Choose God

by UnDisfellowshipped in

come to the wedding.

' for i say to you that god is able to raise up children to abraham from these stones.

ellderwho

LT; does observing the law impart righteousness?

Definitely not, especially in our own case, and in regards to the Mosaic law which Paul speaks of.

Why was there Law in the garden, what was the purpose?

774

Freedom to Choose God

by UnDisfellowshipped in

come to the wedding.

' for i say to you that god is able to raise up children to abraham from these stones.

ellderwho

What was the purpose of the law (the command not to eat the fruit) in the garden? Was it to keep Adam righteous?
Now there's an interesting one...
Great question!
We know that in connection with "the law" (in particular the Mosaic law) that it was there to make sin manifest. It would follow that the first law would show up sin, and so it did.I'm still of the opinion that man wasn't created sinful, though. Other wise the statement "it was very good" would be a misnomer.

LT; does observing the law impart righteousness? Galatians 3:21
Is the Law then contrary to the promises of God? May it never be! For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law.

774

Freedom to Choose God

by UnDisfellowshipped in

come to the wedding.

' for i say to you that god is able to raise up children to abraham from these stones.

ellderwho

Why cant you answer a simply question, was Adam righteous while he sinned. Or as you put "author sin"??

Righteousness is a standard. Hence he was righteous right up to the point that he sinned.
While he was sinning and once he had finished sinning and after he had commited that first sin, he was no longer righteous. I don't understand your difficulty with that.

It does sound kinda of contradictory " Adam the righteous author of sin"

So Adams perfect mind could not keep him from sinning?
Correct. He made a choice...
It seems your hyper-calvinistic bent is keeping you from understanding the extent of "man's responsibility"

Bear with me while I try to reconcile a perfect mind making a un-perfect choice.

It makes my gears grind esspecially while thinking of why the tree was there to begin with. Thanks to DDog

His record was spotless (as far as the record goes).

Is spotless righteousness by defualt?

I ask you again, is good righteous?

Yeah, I'd have to say I'd eat with you as well being food is the international language. Probably one of the few that have actually eaten haggis

774

Freedom to Choose God

by UnDisfellowshipped in

come to the wedding.

' for i say to you that god is able to raise up children to abraham from these stones.

ellderwho

I thought your were a Clavinist?

No, I've never been one of those. I don't play the clarinet, either

Yes I do make typos.

Okay, now you have Adam authoring sin while righteous!..... Doesnt sound very righteous to me
Well then, did Adam author sin while he was righteous?
You're mixing righteousness with good, hence my comment that it was his first unrighteous (or wrong) act. He was "good" yet mixed his circumstances in such a way as to become the author of bad. Of course he had assistence, but the decision was his and he bore the responsibility for that.

How is it that Im the one mixing here? I never once implied or said Adam was righteous, further your the one that brought up the "very good" statement.

Why cant you answer a simply question, was Adam righteous while he sinned. Or as you put "author sin"??

Please be assured that I'm trying to be as forthright with honest answers as I can be.

Well whats your response?

Adam, on the other hand was created "good", "perfect", "sinless", and his every activity was righteous.

So Adams perfect mind could not keep him from sinning?

And his righteous activities did not include sinning correct?

Further theres no proof Adam was perfect let alone righteous.

His record shows he was neither

774

Freedom to Choose God

by UnDisfellowshipped in

come to the wedding.

' for i say to you that god is able to raise up children to abraham from these stones.

ellderwho

EW...You state "we are required" to do something such as obtaining righteousness, how is that done?

Simply put, go to Christ.

I thought your were a Clavinist?......... Required??

No I didn't. I stated he had it. Later he would have needed to obtain it, if he were to be saved.

So he was created with it. Like I tried to say before.

It's not a property, it's a standard. Hence it is diametrically opposed to sin.

Fine, Adam was created with this standard of righteous.

Up until he transgressed God's law (sinned) he was acting righteously.

Okay, now you have Adam authoring sin while righteous!..... Doesnt sound very righteous to me.

Well then, did Adam author sin while he was righteous?
His authoring sin was his first unrighteous act.

Your not answering the question......remember you said;

You never did answer directly whether or not you believe Adam was created unrighteous...

Please show some candor........ I dont like putting words in anyones mouth either.

He had external factors, too, which he blended. Fruit, law, temptation, etc.
It was how he blended the cocktail that led to him authoring sin.

C'mon LT you can do better than that......... Bleach

Acting righteously is adhering to a standard of "good".
Being good is possessing desirable qualities and moral excellence.

Whoa, doing a bit of spinning here.

No, being good is a standard of righteousness.

Im a sinner trying to be righteous. Not a righteous christian that sins sometimes.

774

Freedom to Choose God

by UnDisfellowshipped in

come to the wedding.

' for i say to you that god is able to raise up children to abraham from these stones.

ellderwho

Thanks for finally showing some candor.

I thought I stated my position earlier, by defualt, anyway.......

What would your answer be as to where Adam would have obtained "it" (righteousness)?
Let me just clarify some logic here, for you.
We are required tro obtain it because we never had it and were unrighteous from the beginning. Adam would have been required to obtain it after he became unrighteous.
However he wasn't created with any kind of history of unrighteousness.
In the beginning he didn't need to obtain it at all, as he was performing 100% righteous acts.
That pristine record wasn't sullied until dinnertime.

You state "we are required" to do something such as obtaining righteousness, how is that done?

And back-up your argument and tell me how Adam went about obtaining it. (after the fact)

Further you are assuming Adam was righteous to begin with, and you also assume Adams' created properties.

You state Adams history, with no unrighteousness, then I can state Adams history as not having one, and esspecially not a righteous one. (end result)

Tell me what, in Adams short, if at all history defines him as righteous? (good does not qualify as righteous)

If Adam is righteous "out of the gate" then he must have not been experienced at it because "it" failed him miserably. And it didnt last long.

LT:...Who did Adam inherit his sin from? God??
God forbid, that should be the case. Adam authored it himself.

Well then, did Adam author sin while he was righteous?

EW.....Certainly, being the first created being, he was "loaded" if you will, with the attributes that made him a personal human with his personality etc... with that, anything that Adam was, was part of his creative process.
LT.....I don't want to read into that something that you aren't saying, and so I find it vague.
I suspect that you are getting at there being some kind of seed that would later flourish into sin.

Vague.......? its really not that complicated, you have to face the fact that all Adam was, was given him in the creative process, no?

Is the above thought assuming, or is it logical? Its interesting you feel "suspect" that Im implying some sort of seed thought that turned out to be sin. With that did Adam do what he did because of natural desires?

First, "it is not good" is not the same as declaring "Adam was not good".

Huh? I thought it was "all good"

When did good become righteous?

774

Freedom to Choose God

by UnDisfellowshipped in

come to the wedding.

' for i say to you that god is able to raise up children to abraham from these stones.

ellderwho

When did He look down, so as to make that statement?
At the same time as He said it was very good??

Shortly thereafter, because it was not "good" that Adam be alone

774

Freedom to Choose God

by UnDisfellowshipped in

come to the wedding.

' for i say to you that god is able to raise up children to abraham from these stones.

ellderwho

You never did answer directly whether or not you believe Adam was created unrighteous...

I do not feel that Adam was created righteous! Therefore that leaves the other " un-righteous"

When did He look down, so as to make that statement?
At the same time as He said it was very good??

Why was the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world?

IMHO he was righteous from the beginning. He didn't become unrighteous until a certain point in time wherein he performed an unrighteous act.

Forgive the insertion of words into your mouth however, read a little between the lines here:

EW...You continue to want Adam to have a bit of righteousness, but are unable to point at where he would have obtained it from.

What would your answer be as to where Adam would have obtained "it" (righteousness)?

Certainly, being the first created being, he was "loaded" if you will, with the attributes that made him a personal human with his personality etc... with that, anything that Adam was, was part of his creative process.

Comments?

774

Freedom to Choose God

by UnDisfellowshipped in

come to the wedding.

' for i say to you that god is able to raise up children to abraham from these stones.

ellderwho

That doesn't answer the following question:
Do you believe Adam was created unrighteous?

I state "I do not hold that Adam was righteous to begin with." What does that leave, as my response?

Look at it this way, God looks down upon earth and sees no one that is "righteous" does not that leave Adam out?

Because its "cut and dry" that no one is righteous. And it is "across the board" that no one is righteous. in this tone the said "righteousness" has to be that no one has this attribute in an of themselves.

This is where I feel that the righteousness that some are said to have in the scriptures is not self manifested. Therefore has to be credited to God.

You continue to want Adam to have a bit of righteousness, but are unable to point at where he would have obtained it from.

Certainly, being the first created being, he was "loaded" if you will, with the attributes that made him a personal human with his personality etc... with that, anything that Adam was, was part of his creative process.

My only deduction would be that if Adam possesed "righteousness" it was imputed from his creator.

774

Freedom to Choose God

by UnDisfellowshipped in

come to the wedding.

' for i say to you that god is able to raise up children to abraham from these stones.

ellderwho

For you to tack on "that he started out with" is totally wrong,

First things first. Was Adam created with this attribute (righteousness) ?

edited to add:

EW: I do not hold that Adam was righteous to begin with.