Posts by ellderwho

234

Intelligent Design

by Delta20 in

hey all,.

i am currently studying the topic of intelligent design (id).

basically the id theory is the revival of the teleological argument for the existance of a deity.

ellderwho

:I give up, ellderwho. You obviously have no idea what you're talking about and I won't waste any more bandwidth with you.

I will.

AlanFs response to where does logic come from,

see:http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/71855/15.ashx

:Our brains, which evolved over several million years into the best social computers the world has ever seen, and into excellent survival machines that rely specifically on logically putting those "real, observable effects" into actions that result in survival.

This doesnt work, since all people are different and the human mind is often contradictory.

We discover laws of physics by observing and analyzing the behavior of things around us. The laws of logic are not the result of observable behavior of object or actions, ie. we do not see in nature that something is both itself and not itself at the same time. The laws of logic are not descriptions of action, but of truth.

Try again Al.

234

Intelligent Design

by Delta20 in

hey all,.

i am currently studying the topic of intelligent design (id).

basically the id theory is the revival of the teleological argument for the existance of a deity.

ellderwho

Alan F.::"Living one's life based on realities that can be observed and/or produce real, observable effects"
EW: Are'nt you relying on logic?
Alan F :I like to think I am.
EW : If so where does this logic come from?
Our brains, which evolved over several million years into the best social computers the world has ever seen, and into excellent survival machines that rely specifically on logically putting those "real, observable effects" into actions that result in survival.
AlanF.......... "freedom to choose God thread"

Whats your definition of logic?

234

Intelligent Design

by Delta20 in

hey all,.

i am currently studying the topic of intelligent design (id).

basically the id theory is the revival of the teleological argument for the existance of a deity.

ellderwho

DDog,
As AlanF repeatedly pointed out, the "laws of logic" Ellderwho referred to have not been defined.

Sure they have, its just not the definition Alan F. wants to tear down.

234

Intelligent Design

by Delta20 in

hey all,.

i am currently studying the topic of intelligent design (id).

basically the id theory is the revival of the teleological argument for the existance of a deity.

ellderwho

Alan F writes: ellderwho said:
: I did? Logic was brought up on pg. 4 or 5.
Yes, you certainly did bring up the subject. While funkyderek first mentioned "the laws of logic", you said in response:
: Pole, Derek how would you account for the laws of logic?

Derek: OK. We've been talking at cross-purposes then. It's certainly conceivable that there's a complex invisible creator outside our universe that is not detectable in any way nor subject to the laws of our own universe nor even laws of logic.

Page 5 17-Feb-05 11:43
DDog asks him this: derek
What are the laws of logic and where did they come from?

:My question to you obviously was to define "the laws of logic" that you think need to be accounted for.

:Again, define your terms. What do you think "universal standards of rationality" are? Give some examples.

The standards of opposites like, up and down, hot and cold.

: If you don't answer these simple questions, then I have no choice to conclude that you're not interested in a discussion, and I will cease talking to you.

Maybe Derek has a better explanation?

234

Intelligent Design

by Delta20 in

hey all,.

i am currently studying the topic of intelligent design (id).

basically the id theory is the revival of the teleological argument for the existance of a deity.

ellderwho

In regards to the question " how would you account for the laws of logic"

Alan F: This is an extremely stupid question, akin to asking, 'How would you account for the laws of arithmetic, such as the fact that 1 + 1 makes 2?' Or, 'How would you account for the fact that God cannot make an object so heavy that he cannot lift it?'

Is this supposed to prove theres something God cannot do, (logically) ? This might work, but this type of reasoning leaves out some vital information, which the atheist omits...... Gods omnipotence is not seperate from his nature. God can only do things that are consistent with his nature.

So its true God cannot make a rock so big..... that doesnt mean hes not God. It would be a contradiction with God to do so.

As far as arithmetic........1 + 1 = 2 how do you know this is true in all the world, or are you just trying to show me a "universal standard of rationality"

Ive answered "extremely stupid questions" that you claim are "akin" to my question, at least you could answer mine.

234

Intelligent Design

by Delta20 in

hey all,.

i am currently studying the topic of intelligent design (id).

basically the id theory is the revival of the teleological argument for the existance of a deity.

ellderwho

Alan F:Ellderwho, you are the one who brought up the subject, so it's your problem to define your terms.

I did? Logic was brought up on pg. 4 or 5.

How about universal standards of rationality. Or do you have a problem with that?

234

Intelligent Design

by Delta20 in

hey all,.

i am currently studying the topic of intelligent design (id).

basically the id theory is the revival of the teleological argument for the existance of a deity.

ellderwho

Alan F,

:I think that you can't be specific because you haven't the slightest idea what "the laws of logic" are.

And you are?

:The "laws of logic" -- whatever they happen to be....."

:Your statement is not even correct.

About logic being a conceptual reality? Logic has to reside in the mind, its a description of truth.

234

Intelligent Design

by Delta20 in

hey all,.

i am currently studying the topic of intelligent design (id).

basically the id theory is the revival of the teleological argument for the existance of a deity.

ellderwho

This is an extremely stupid question, akin to asking, 'How would you account for the laws of arithmetic, such as the fact that 1 + 1 makes 2?' Or, 'How would you account for the fact that God cannot make an object so heavy that he cannot lift it?'

My position attributes the laws of Logic to God, I would like to understand how an atheist comes to a world of logic from a world of chances.

:The "laws of logic" -- whatever they happen to be -- are going to make sense in any possible universe, because by definition, anything that doesn't make sense is not "logical".

I feel they would make sense anywhere because they are absolute truth. If logic is not absolute, then no logical arguments for or against the existence of God can be made.

:Ellderwho, you haven't even managed to state what you think "the laws of logic" are.

See above

:You seem to be the sort of Christian apologist -- a type I've seen countless times before on the Net -- who throws out vague, fuzzy notions

Your right I was vague and fuzzy in my questioning the atheist about the origin of logic rather than why logic is in place.

:Now, if you really want to have a discussion on the origin of "the laws of logic", then state those laws clearly.

I believe the laws of logic are conceptual realities.

234

Intelligent Design

by Delta20 in

hey all,.

i am currently studying the topic of intelligent design (id).

basically the id theory is the revival of the teleological argument for the existance of a deity.

ellderwho

Funky Derek,

ellderwho:
Pole, Derek how would you account for the laws of logic?

Logic is a method for determining whether an argument or piece of reasoning is likely to be correct. It's impossible to argue usefully without using some form of logic.

You really didnt answer my question, although you agree that logic is needed to argue, you fail to aknowledge how logic is derived from a world of matter energy and motion?

234

Intelligent Design

by Delta20 in

hey all,.

i am currently studying the topic of intelligent design (id).

basically the id theory is the revival of the teleological argument for the existance of a deity.

ellderwho

Also you don't have any proof so you make up a situation in which there is one and try to discredit funkyderek for not accepting non-existing proof. This is a pathetic line of reasoning. Admit it.

You lost me here.

Pole, Derek how would you account for the laws of logic?