Posts by AnnOMaly

58

IC 2014 talk: "A Century of Kingdom Rule Contrasted With a Century of Satans Rule"

by AnnOMaly in

a discussion of this talk on friday morning deserves its own thread.

as i said elsewhere, it was a remarkable one.

the speaker was manfred vencebi (google him - he's a bethel bigwig) and some of his remarks are real gems.

AnnOMaly

^ At last somebody's picked up on that! That was one of the gems. He made the point that 100 years ago homosexuality was condemned, then it became widely tolerated, then it became widely accepted. Then he ended with the above statement in DoC's post. It actually sounded like "wildly obligatory" but he must have meant 'widely' (he followed by saying today's 'progressive thinking' has gone 'wild'). "WTH?" was my reaction too and I had to rewind a couple of times to make sure I heard right.

58

IC 2014 talk: "A Century of Kingdom Rule Contrasted With a Century of Satans Rule"

by AnnOMaly in

a discussion of this talk on friday morning deserves its own thread.

as i said elsewhere, it was a remarkable one.

the speaker was manfred vencebi (google him - he's a bethel bigwig) and some of his remarks are real gems.

AnnOMaly

... but why do you torture yourself like that?

I like to know what my JW family are being force-fed. This is being heralded as an historic series of conventions and I'm curious to see how they hype it. This particular talk wasn't just historical but was also hysterical in parts - in a dark way. No end of leaps of illogic, fallacies and non sequiturs. It had to be kept for posterity.

And I did it, so you don't have to.

58

IC 2014 talk: "A Century of Kingdom Rule Contrasted With a Century of Satans Rule"

by AnnOMaly in

a discussion of this talk on friday morning deserves its own thread.

as i said elsewhere, it was a remarkable one.

the speaker was manfred vencebi (google him - he's a bethel bigwig) and some of his remarks are real gems.

AnnOMaly

A discussion of this talk on Friday morning deserves its own thread. As I said elsewhere, it was a remarkable one. The speaker was Manfred Vencebi (google him - he's a Bethel bigwig) and some of his remarks are real gems. I thought putting his comparison in table format would make it easier to distinguish between what Satan's rule has accomplished in a century and what Jesus' rule has accomplished at the same time, according to Watchtower's perspective. Peruse at your leisure. I've avoided editorializing but summarized or paraphrased the main points and included some wonderful direct quotes (watch out for these).

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"So the question is, what has Christ done over the past 100 years to make things better? What can be said about the past century of kingdom rule when you contrast that with a century of Satan's rule?"

SATAN’S RULE	JESUS’ RULE
Billions of followers (including those following by default rather than choice).	Under 10 million followers to show for a century of evangelization. "But it is precisely because we are small in numbers compared to Satan's world that we have to conclude that what Christ has accomplished is impressive" - Matt. 7: cramped road to life, few in number, etc. "So the progress that Christ has accomplished over a hundred years is not dependent on numbers."
Satan's world is 'wiser' (Lk. 16:8) and far more sophisticated scientifically and technologically. But many so-called improvements are superficial, a veneer covering the rottenness underneath.	'Sons of light' (Lk. 16:8) "have accomplished greater things."
Improvements in health and nutrition; some common ailments of the past now eradicated. "But does that mean man has finally found a cure for illness and sickness in general? No." - numerous health disorders today that were unheard of 100 years ago with no cure. "Is that progress?" Abortion far safer now but "no abortion is safe for an unborn child" - 44 million abortions globally in a recent year. Progress? Success and accomplishments in field of malnutrition and hunger - eliminated in many parts of the world. "But have they eradicated malnutrition? No. ... Is the world getting better?" Spiritual health. "Has the world drawn closer to Jehovah over the last 100 years? Yes, people live longer today, but what is the point of having a longer lifespan and better health when, in most cases, people use those extra years and that extra energy to draw away from God and from our Creator? People use the extra health to offend God with their conduct. So, 100 years ago, people may have lived 40, 50, 60 years; now they can reach to their 80s and 90s and now they have 20, 30 or 40 years more to offend Jehovah, to engage in conduct that makes him sad. Is that progress?" Most people spiritually starving (Isa. 65:13 - 'my own servants will eat while you go hungry' etc.) and Bible-illiterate. "What is the advantage of having plenty to eat when you don't even know the most elementary things about the Creator and his purposes?"	Spiritual health and nutrition. Main focus of God's kingdom is our spiritual nutrition. One of the first things Jesus did when enthroned was appoint a 'faithful and discreet slave' because he was interested in helping people understand what the Bible really teaches. "The faithful and discreet slave was commissioned to dig into the Bible, to separate the Bible truths from all the centuries of tradition and human philosophies and get to the core of the Bible's true message." We have our own Bible. Hundred years ago we didn't have our own Bible "accurate, faithful to the original Greek and Hebrew. Now we have a Bible. That's progress." We only had one *Watchtower* but now we have Public and Study editions. "That is progress. Things are getting better among Jehovah's people." *Awake* magazine, *Kingdom Ministry* - didn't have these 100 years ago. Printing 90 million books and 1 billion magazines annually and trying to reach people of every culture around the world. "That is progress." In 1914, published in 30 languages; now publishing in 700 languages. "That is progress. No other organization, religious, political, military, no commercial organization on earth is translating so many languages." Conventions. Especially historical ones like this one.
	"And what can we say about the relief work we do to help people when they are victims of wars and disasters?" [Nothing at all. He leaves the question hanging.]
Advances in technology. Some point to it as proof of things getting better in the world, but is it a good way to measure progress? Technology is used in warfare to kill and maim; used for entertainment that offends Jehovah, e.g. games, videos, websites featuring graphic sexual immorality, gruesome violence. "Technology is not a good way to measure progress in this world. The world is not getting better."	Technological accomplishments. Photodrama of Creation; jw.org, "and the list goes on." All to promote spiritual food, the Truth.
Changes in civil rights, racial equality. Now people are more accepting, more open-minded, more tolerant. Some changes are for the better BUT "adultery - accepted; pre-marital sex - widely accepted." "Today, homosexual behavior is widely accepted. It seems that the goal is, someday, to make homosexuality widely obligatory." (Isa 5:20,21 - 'woe to those saying good is bad, bad is good' etc.)
Satan has plunged the world into darkness, enmity with God. "Satan's world has gone from bad to worse."	"All of this points to one amazing fact. Over the past 100 years, Jesus Christ has successfully established - or should we say - reestablished on earth true Christianity." We follow the pattern of 1st century Christianity - keeping the congregation clean by removing wrongdoers; being politically neutral; having no clergy; preaching the good news in the 1st century pattern. Abundance of Bible aids to help people morally, in family life.

"There's no question about it. The world is getting worse, while Jehovah's organization is getting better."

"God's kingdom has accomplished a lot in the last 100 years - they're too numerous to recount."

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Over to you. Please add your comments and observations as well as your comparisions with other versions of the talk at other venues.

36

Open challenge to "Dr" Rolf Furuli and Greg Stafford - DEBATE.

by Focus in

to me af's.

see below for more on af.

"prominent" (lol!

AnnOMaly

While iw as enjoying reading Stafford, Hall Flemmings, SolomonLanders, and the rest...... I do wonder why ALL apologetics of any note seemed to have completely dried up?

(You do know that Solomon Landers passed away early last year?) I agree with Focus about the virtual beatings. My take on it is below. Because I'm lazy, I'll c&p my comments from another forum:

... the major reason is the leadership's counsel against engaging with former and current members who are critical of or challenge JW teachings. By calling them the worst name imaginable to a JW, the a-word ('apostate'), which is almost synonymous with 'satanic,' they are instilling a gut-felt aversion to these people and thus closing down JW minds to any criticisms and challenges, regardless of how valid they may be.

Of course, there will always be some JWs who disregard the Governing Body/'faithful and discreet slave's' counsel, but they will be in the minority. However, given the frequent and strongly-worded reminders by the leadership over the past few years, encountering real JW apologists on discussion forums will probably become increasingly rare. I think the glory days of JW debate on the internet (late '90s - late 2000s) are gone now.

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Moreover, what confidence does a JW defender have any more in arguing the Org's position? With the Org. transitioning and reinventing itself these past few years, and all the recent doctrinal overhauls (likely much more is to come), e.g. the new identity of the 'FDS' and the timing of its appointment or the embarrassing 'overlapping generation' teaching, rugs have been pulled from under the JW defender. What was once thought a solid position no longer is, and some of the new understandings are more confusing than the previous ones. Sensible people will only fight for an argument when they think they have a strong case.

36

Open challenge to "Dr" Rolf Furuli and Greg Stafford - DEBATE.

by Focus in

to me af's.

see below for more on af.

"prominent" (lol!

AnnOMaly

What makes you conjecture, Ann, that it would be a direct contact with IKEA by myself - or myself posting in the manner I do here?

Ahh, now you ass-u-me I conjectured that it would be a direct contact with IKEA. I indicated nothing of the sort.

Nevertheless, cobbling together Nazi-IKEA-WTS-Furuli connections, however sweetly you spin it, however well-aimed at your intended targets, you will still come across as cuckoo.

Ann (of the 'keeps it real' class)

36

Open challenge to "Dr" Rolf Furuli and Greg Stafford - DEBATE.

by Focus in

to me af's.

see below for more on af.

"prominent" (lol!

AnnOMaly

aka Bibleman?

That's him. My fave muppet. It would be more appropriate to call him 'Legion' for his names are many.

I intend to take the battle to them.

How? Or is that information classified?

... perhaps some mileage can be had.

Again, you'd likely come across as somebody rather unhinged and not be taken seriously ... unless that is your intent.

Ann (of the 'sees more than she let's on' class)

36

Open challenge to "Dr" Rolf Furuli and Greg Stafford - DEBATE.

by Focus in

to me af's.

see below for more on af.

"prominent" (lol!

AnnOMaly

Interesting to learn, especially as I was part of this debunking process while it was actually happening.

How about that! I'm not often accused of hiding my light under a bushel, lol, but if I can do that in my sleep... well...

Great. Then you went and did other things while more pro-WT 'research' was lobbed in, while some continued fighting the fine fight and others joined the cause. Look, I get it. You were swashbuckling away in the early, legendary days of online JW debate while I was figuratively still in diapers. But what realistically do you want to happen here after so much water has sloshed under the bridge? Neither Stafford or Furuli would be seen dead here - F. certainly not and you will get nothing, NOTHING, from him.

Appearances can be deceptive. ...

Your appearance as a nut with a personal vendetta so old it's grown blue fur is just a smokescreen?

Perhaps this progressive revelation assists you.

It doesn't.

Hey, I guess you remember 'Joshua92'(?) and pseudo-'scholar' Neil.

Ann (of the 'tent pin-wielding Jael' class)

36

Open challenge to "Dr" Rolf Furuli and Greg Stafford - DEBATE.

by Focus in

to me af's.

see below for more on af.

"prominent" (lol!

AnnOMaly

LOL@designs.

He would not admit to, or deny, being one of the Witlesses until much later.

It was an open secret, and most/all the JWs interested in his chronology stuff knew very well he was JW by the time Vol. 1 hit Storrs and GoldenAgeBooks.

The assumed unbiased nature of his research (sic) greatly benefited the respect in which it was held by those who lack scientific or professional historian training.

He's been thoroughly debunked by COJ, Prof. Hunger and others, in online articles, in journals, on forums, in videos - all this while you were sleeping.

The 'hole hasn't apologized. Point me to where he has, if you take issue with that and disagree, and I will withdraw my claim. I won't hold my breath, though.

You are mistaking me for someone who gives a rat's behind. Practically everyone on JWN has been taken in by the WTS doctrines at some stage and passionately defended them one time. Focus your anger on those responsible for formulating the policies, not those once taken in by them who have now changed their minds.

Ann (of the 'shove it back at ya' class)

36

Open challenge to "Dr" Rolf Furuli and Greg Stafford - DEBATE.

by Focus in

to me af's.

see below for more on af.

"prominent" (lol!

AnnOMaly

C-O J showed that, on the balance of probabilities, Furuli ignored, suppressed, contrived to misinterpret or somehow ""missed"" data that refuted the Watchtower's demonic eschatology, pinned as that is on a start point date re the fall of Jerusalem. The WTS got it wrong by twenty years, and stuck to the wrong date (conventional historians are absolutely as one with respect to this) with the help of Furuli's demented babbling.

We know. You're missing your own years here in the Furuli/WTS vs. real chronology debate. A lot's happened this past decade - both in Furuli/WTS-world and ex-JW-world.

Ann (of the 'up-to-date' class)

36

Open challenge to "Dr" Rolf Furuli and Greg Stafford - DEBATE.

by Focus in

to me af's.

see below for more on af.

"prominent" (lol!

AnnOMaly

I wouldn't waste my spit on ****, ******* ****** **** like him, except I am happy to make a public fool of him and humiliate him - any time.

Why? His views have changed. He doesn't promote the blood doctrine any more - not for about 10 years. Nevermind making him look a fool, you're coming across as total looney tune.

Ann (of the 'calm down and gain some perspective' class)