jonza

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Posts by jonza

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  199

  Trinitarians! Who is Jesus Christ's father the Holy Spirit or the Father?

  by booker-t in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  this is one question that trinitarians try to avoid because they have created a very embarrassing problem.

  the bible is very clear when the angel tells mary that holy spirit will overshadow her and she will become pregnant.

  the angel does not say the father will overshadow her but the holy spirit will and if the holy spirit is a person that would make him the father of jesus.

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  jonza

  cofty, try reading those verses in context. It's certainly not proof texting.
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  199

  Trinitarians! Who is Jesus Christ's father the Holy Spirit or the Father?

  by booker-t in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  this is one question that trinitarians try to avoid because they have created a very embarrassing problem.

  the bible is very clear when the angel tells mary that holy spirit will overshadow her and she will become pregnant.

  the angel does not say the father will overshadow her but the holy spirit will and if the holy spirit is a person that would make him the father of jesus.

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  jonza

  NeverKnew: good point. Though some of the verses haven't been tampered with by the WT, at least when comparing versions it can highlight how they do their best to twist it.
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  199

  Trinitarians! Who is Jesus Christ's father the Holy Spirit or the Father?

  by booker-t in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  this is one question that trinitarians try to avoid because they have created a very embarrassing problem.

  the bible is very clear when the angel tells mary that holy spirit will overshadow her and she will become pregnant.

  the angel does not say the father will overshadow her but the holy spirit will and if the holy spirit is a person that would make him the father of jesus.

  1. 
  2. 
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  jonza

  The Father Called God

  II Peter 1:17
  
  The Son called God
  Rev 1:8
  Rev 21:5-7
  Rev 22:13-16 Jesus is the Alpha and Omega
  Rev 22:7, 12, 20
  Rev 22:13 First and Last
  Isiah 44:6 First and Last

  Rev 1:12-18 V17 First and Last
  
  Exodus 3: 11-14
  John 8: 56-58
  John 10: 11,14,30 [30 to 33] even they think 30 means he saying he's God
  Col 2:9
  Phil 2: 5-11
  Isiah 45:22-24
  John 5:18 then 23 Jesus wants the same honor, 1 John 5:20
  Luke 8:38-39

  Spirit is called God
  Acts 5: 3-4
  Acts 13:2
  II Cor: 6:16
  II Cor 6:19
  II Tim 3:16
  I Cor 3:16
  II Peter 1: 20-21

  Trinity in Scripture
  Luke 1:35
  Mat 3: 16,17
  Mat 28: 19
  II Cor 13:14
  Galatians 4:6 Gods spirit is Jesus' spirit

  Trinity at resurrection
  1 Thes 1:9-10
  John 2: 19-21
  Rom 8:11
  Acts 17: 30-31

  Then we have OT views about it:

  Isa 43:10 No God before or after JAH Isa 44:8

  No God besides him Isa 45:5 Isiah 44:24, 45:12 Compare Col 1:13-17

  1st Peter 2: 7, 8, 9. Who is being talked about here? (Jesus start from V3 for reference), See link in V8 links to: Isa 8:14, same person? See V13
  
  Amos 4:10-11 JAH said I overthrew you like God did

  Zac 11:13 JAH 30 pieces of silver

  God said us/we: Genesis 3:22, Gen 7:11, Isa 6:8

  Jude 4

  2 Peter 2:1 who bought you? see Gal 3:13, Rev 5:9

  There are many other verses which talk about how there is [one] of [something] and that one is Jesus, and then elsewhere that one is God. Creator being the prime example.

  We are never going to understand the very nature of God, trinity is a way people tried to comprehend Gods nature, but it's never going to allow us to fully understand Him.

  Like others have said, I was raised in a Christian church being taught the trinity exists, but never really knowing why. I wasn't able to back up anything about why I believed in the trinity at all. It was only this past year or so I started to really look for Biblical evidence of it. To me at least, I'm satisified in how I now understand the concept of the trinity and I believe it's the best thing we have to do so.
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  130

  Involved with a JW woman

  by jonza in

  1. social
  2. relationships

  okay so i'm dating a born-in jw woman, she's younger than me and has no kids.

  i'm a christian man whos divorced with 2 kids.

  we're in love and seriously want to be together.

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  jonza

  BTW, I've already told her I want a prenup to prevent them ever being raised as a JW. She accepted this.

  I'm going to get her to read CoC and watch the hassan video. She's already agreed to that too. English isn't her first language so it will take her some time.
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  130

  Involved with a JW woman

  by jonza in

  1. social
  2. relationships

  okay so i'm dating a born-in jw woman, she's younger than me and has no kids.

  i'm a christian man whos divorced with 2 kids.

  we're in love and seriously want to be together.

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  jonza

  cultBgone: Actually pink used to be a sign of masculinity and blue feminity in many cultures :)

  I think she mostly doesn't want her family to shun her. She's still under their indoctrination big time, but she doesn't think they have the truth, though she doesn't think anyone has the real truth either now. A long time ago I saw the look of shock on her face when I showed her on jw.org that they teach Jesus isn't the mediator to all and that he didn't die for her personal sins. She wont believe that because she has read the Bible for herself and knows what it says is true regarding all that. She does not buy into their reasons whatsoever. She has stated many times she will go with what the Bible says not any man or organization.

  She has stated many times that before I came a long and even when we first met that there were lots of things that she didn't agree to. E.g. being a JW is the only way to get salvation. She always believed that's upto God to decide for each individual. That includes JWs who get DF. She doesn't think she's doomed if she dies/at armagedon while DF at all.
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  130

  Involved with a JW woman

  by jonza in

  1. social
  2. relationships

  okay so i'm dating a born-in jw woman, she's younger than me and has no kids.

  i'm a christian man whos divorced with 2 kids.

  we're in love and seriously want to be together.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  jonza

  The whole pagan roots thing. When I mention that the WT has many bad/pagan roots she says that's why she'd never go back to them.
• 
  130

  Involved with a JW woman

  by jonza in

  1. social
  2. relationships

  okay so i'm dating a born-in jw woman, she's younger than me and has no kids.

  i'm a christian man whos divorced with 2 kids.

  we're in love and seriously want to be together.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  jonza

  She has said that she would try going to church with me but just once or twice, but is opposed to go to a home bible study group. She goes get wildly offensive over the trinity and 'pagan' holidays though. The worst thing she has really said about churches is the variety and 'disorganization' and that we're all lost little sheep not knowing where we want to go. But it's been a while since she said that. It actually has been one year already since she's studied the WT (since lost her privileges she didn't care to) and doesn't really pay attention at the meetings. Now when she pays attention she's just looking for the bad things that they say, though she probably doesn't realize half of the bad things they say.
• 
  130

  Involved with a JW woman

  by jonza in

  1. social
  2. relationships

  okay so i'm dating a born-in jw woman, she's younger than me and has no kids.

  i'm a christian man whos divorced with 2 kids.

  we're in love and seriously want to be together.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  jonza

  Fair point, I realise I'm not her rescuer as such, I just want to be there for her. The main thing I have done is just ask her questions, she has shown the first steps of thinking for herself. It's a start at least. She's never once said my church is the devil or anything like that. She has just said she doesn't consider it the truth either. I get your point about waiting before getting her into a church though.
• 
  130

  Involved with a JW woman

  by jonza in

  1. social
  2. relationships

  okay so i'm dating a born-in jw woman, she's younger than me and has no kids.

  i'm a christian man whos divorced with 2 kids.

  we're in love and seriously want to be together.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  jonza

  I think right now she is coming to terms with everything still before she can start her own research. She just said this morning that she feels like she's been lied to her whole life, and it's hard to take. The thought of her moving to be with me and then being shunned by her family is quite a lot to take right now. I love this woman and I've put in way too much to back out now. I'm not going to jump into marriage with her or kids. I will live with her for a few years at least (she wants the same) before making any life long commitments. I will use this time to help her out of this cult and hopefully into a church.
• 
  130

  Involved with a JW woman

  by jonza in

  1. social
  2. relationships

  okay so i'm dating a born-in jw woman, she's younger than me and has no kids.

  i'm a christian man whos divorced with 2 kids.

  we're in love and seriously want to be together.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  jonza

  Update: Since she conceided about the kids issue she has calmed down somewhat. Though a week or so passed and I was still trying to talk to her about religion and she was constantly in shut down mode.. I lost my cool and started ranting about how she's so blind and doesn't see any of it and all the things I've showed her and even what she's admited it doesn't change her view or mind at all..... Anyway at this point, she could see my total frustration and she said: "I have a confession to make".... I quickly calmed down and she started to open up properly for the first time ever about all this!!!

  She started telling me about how she's being paying attention to all the times in the meetings when they tell her to obey the FDS, and she's been remembering things in the past they've said too. She said she thinks it's totally wrong that they said obeying the FDS is like obeying Jehovah, and that she's never going to put her faith in men or obey them. Wow!
  She admitted how even during her baptism questions a few years ago something seemed wrong about some of the things she had to agree to (she couldn't quite remember what). But she has since started being way more open about this, and has started pointing out the things that she's been hearing in the meetings. Mostly about control. I think she's ready to watch the Hassan video and will hopefully start to identify many more things.

  She also said she was thinking about the GB and how they're changing doctrines could be to do with the different men coming and going from the group, and if that's why how can she possibly trust what they're saying today. She was actually thinking for herself, I've never even said that to her. She concluded that this could be life changing for her!!! She said all she wants after her DF is to get reinstated and then to fade. She has said a few times she's actually scared for her family because she's worried what the FDS will say next, like something that could cause them to harm themselves.

  She is worried about the shunning, but she's willing to tell her family soon about us. I showed her the FAQs on jw.org about shunning and at first she got excited, but then said "yeah but my mom is SO indoctrinated it won't make a difference". She also admitted to being very indoctrinated herself.

  Do you think she's finally starting to wake up? or am I getting excited for nothing? I can still see this process taking a very long time, I'm under no illusion. But from the above I think she's made great progress. I mean, when we do talk about things now, she is waaaaay more open minded, but still very defensive, and is quick to say I'm being disrespectful. I have to approach with caution but it's way better than before.