Posts by jonza

199

Trinitarians! Who is Jesus Christ's father the Holy Spirit or the Father?

by booker-t in

this is one question that trinitarians try to avoid because they have created a very embarrassing problem.

the bible is very clear when the angel tells mary that holy spirit will overshadow her and she will become pregnant.

the angel does not say the father will overshadow her but the holy spirit will and if the holy spirit is a person that would make him the father of jesus.

jonza

Again putting words into my mouth. I said the Father glorfies the Son. I never said He worships Him specifically. However to give Him glory is similar to worship and be translated as worship.

Also, you are resorting to the WT technique of partial quoting. I said that is how I was explained the concept of the trinity as components years ago in church, and it was actually when I was a child. As I explained before the concept of the trinity is three persons and all are God, and that there is only one God.

You have still yet to answer any of my questions directly.

You say I'm advocating heresy, what are your reasons for thinking that? I'm going by what is clear from the Bible. You've not even said what it is you really believe or used Scripture to claim what I am saying is wrong. You're just stating your opinion with nothing to back it up.

Why would the early church need to attmpt to justify worshipping Jesus when He was clearly worshiped in the Bible? I fail to see how that is related.

I'm still waiting on your answers? Why won't you answer any of my questions?

199

Trinitarians! Who is Jesus Christ's father the Holy Spirit or the Father?

by booker-t in

this is one question that trinitarians try to avoid because they have created a very embarrassing problem.

the bible is very clear when the angel tells mary that holy spirit will overshadow her and she will become pregnant.

the angel does not say the father will overshadow her but the holy spirit will and if the holy spirit is a person that would make him the father of jesus.

jonza

I like how you put words in my mouth. I never actually said whether the Father worships Jesus or not. John 8:54 says God certainly glorifies Jesus. Revelation 5:12-14, says everyone will worship Jesus. John 5:23 says to honor Jesus just as you honor the Father. Many times God alone is said to be the only one who is to be worshiped. Again, how do you explain this if Jesus is not God yet Jesus is said to be worshiped?

cofty, so far you have been the one avoiding questions... Please answer mine: "How can you explain that there is only one God; no God before him, no God after him; only one true God, no other creator than Jehovah? Yet Jesus is also said to be God and said to be the I AM and the First and the Last and the Alpha and Omega? Do you believe in multiple Gods? Is Jesus a false god, if there is only one true God?"

Can you also answer, in the verses I listed before about how the Bible says, Jesus raised Himself from the dead, then elsewhere, the Holy Spirit raised Him from the dead, then elsewhere the Father raised Him from the dead?

199

Trinitarians! Who is Jesus Christ's father the Holy Spirit or the Father?

by booker-t in

this is one question that trinitarians try to avoid because they have created a very embarrassing problem.

the bible is very clear when the angel tells mary that holy spirit will overshadow her and she will become pregnant.

the angel does not say the father will overshadow her but the holy spirit will and if the holy spirit is a person that would make him the father of jesus.

jonza

I don't see it as grasping at straws. It is what the Bible indicates. John 10:30 "The Father and I are one" This isn't necessarily a text to support the trinity in itself, but is supportive of that fact they are in agreement.

You actually ignored my questions: "How can you explain that there is only one God; no God before him, no God after him; only one true God, no other creator than Jehovah? Yet Jesus is also said to be God and said to be the I AM and the First and the Last and the Alpha and Omega? Do you believe in multiple Gods? Is Jesus a false god, if there is only one true God?"

To answer your question. I believe yes he does. I don't think that in any way has to conflict with the concept of the trinity. Now are you going to answer my question? :)

199

Trinitarians! Who is Jesus Christ's father the Holy Spirit or the Father?

by booker-t in

this is one question that trinitarians try to avoid because they have created a very embarrassing problem.

the bible is very clear when the angel tells mary that holy spirit will overshadow her and she will become pregnant.

the angel does not say the father will overshadow her but the holy spirit will and if the holy spirit is a person that would make him the father of jesus.

jonza

I will speak for myself, I have an IQ of 158 and have two full Bsc degrees, and yes compared to God almighty my brain is tiny and can't even attempt to understand more than a very basic concept of Him.

3 persons that are in total unison, not comitee. You could describe it as the 3 natures of the same being. In church years ago, I had it explained like you take a person, they have a brain that is like the Father. They have a spirit like the Holy Spirit, and a body like Jesus. Three components, one being that is YHWH. I've heard it also described like time, past present and future, but all are of the same substance and same in nature, but each unque.

199

Trinitarians! Who is Jesus Christ's father the Holy Spirit or the Father?

by booker-t in

this is one question that trinitarians try to avoid because they have created a very embarrassing problem.

the bible is very clear when the angel tells mary that holy spirit will overshadow her and she will become pregnant.

the angel does not say the father will overshadow her but the holy spirit will and if the holy spirit is a person that would make him the father of jesus.

jonza

I'm not promoting tritheism at all. That is not the concept of the trinity. The concept of the trinity is a monothestic but it is made up of three individual persons. It is a way to explain the paradox in Bible of there only being one true God: YHWH. However the Father is called God, the Holy Spirit is called God and Jesus is called God several times.

It is a limited concept for our tiny brains to attempt to understand the unlimited infinite greatness of God.

199

Trinitarians! Who is Jesus Christ's father the Holy Spirit or the Father?

by booker-t in

this is one question that trinitarians try to avoid because they have created a very embarrassing problem.

the bible is very clear when the angel tells mary that holy spirit will overshadow her and she will become pregnant.

the angel does not say the father will overshadow her but the holy spirit will and if the holy spirit is a person that would make him the father of jesus.

jonza

That is because the concept of the trinity is that Jesus and God are not the same person but are both in very nature God. The Father is the God of Jesus in terms of position, but that does not mean Jesus is also not God. He is called God several times throughout the Bible, including being called the "I AM" Who is Jehovah. How can you explain that there is only one God; no God before him, no God after him; only one true God, no other creator than Jehovah? Yet Jesus is also said to be God and said to be the I AM and the First and the Last and the Alpha and Omega? Do you believe in multiple Gods? Is Jesus a false god, if there is only one true God?

199

Trinitarians! Who is Jesus Christ's father the Holy Spirit or the Father?

by booker-t in

this is one question that trinitarians try to avoid because they have created a very embarrassing problem.

the bible is very clear when the angel tells mary that holy spirit will overshadow her and she will become pregnant.

the angel does not say the father will overshadow her but the holy spirit will and if the holy spirit is a person that would make him the father of jesus.

jonza

cofty, try reading those verses in context. It's certainly not proof texting.

199

Trinitarians! Who is Jesus Christ's father the Holy Spirit or the Father?

by booker-t in

this is one question that trinitarians try to avoid because they have created a very embarrassing problem.

the bible is very clear when the angel tells mary that holy spirit will overshadow her and she will become pregnant.

the angel does not say the father will overshadow her but the holy spirit will and if the holy spirit is a person that would make him the father of jesus.

jonza

NeverKnew: good point. Though some of the verses haven't been tampered with by the WT, at least when comparing versions it can highlight how they do their best to twist it.

199

Trinitarians! Who is Jesus Christ's father the Holy Spirit or the Father?

by booker-t in

this is one question that trinitarians try to avoid because they have created a very embarrassing problem.

the bible is very clear when the angel tells mary that holy spirit will overshadow her and she will become pregnant.

the angel does not say the father will overshadow her but the holy spirit will and if the holy spirit is a person that would make him the father of jesus.

jonza

The Father Called God

II Peter 1:17

The Son called God
Rev 1:8
Rev 21:5-7
Rev 22:13-16 Jesus is the Alpha and Omega
Rev 22:7, 12, 20
Rev 22:13 First and Last
Isiah 44:6 First and Last

Rev 1:12-18 V17 First and Last

Exodus 3: 11-14
John 8: 56-58
John 10: 11,14,30 [30 to 33] even they think 30 means he saying he's God
Col 2:9
Phil 2: 5-11
Isiah 45:22-24
John 5:18 then 23 Jesus wants the same honor, 1 John 5:20
Luke 8:38-39

Spirit is called God
Acts 5: 3-4
Acts 13:2
II Cor: 6:16
II Cor 6:19
II Tim 3:16
I Cor 3:16
II Peter 1: 20-21

Trinity in Scripture
Luke 1:35
Mat 3: 16,17
Mat 28: 19
II Cor 13:14
Galatians 4:6 Gods spirit is Jesus' spirit

Trinity at resurrection
1 Thes 1:9-10
John 2: 19-21
Rom 8:11
Acts 17: 30-31

Then we have OT views about it:

Isa 43:10 No God before or after JAH Isa 44:8

No God besides him Isa 45:5 Isiah 44:24, 45:12 Compare Col 1:13-17

1st Peter 2: 7, 8, 9. Who is being talked about here? (Jesus start from V3 for reference), See link in V8 links to: Isa 8:14, same person? See V13

Amos 4:10-11 JAH said I overthrew you like God did

Zac 11:13 JAH 30 pieces of silver

God said us/we: Genesis 3:22, Gen 7:11, Isa 6:8

Jude 4

2 Peter 2:1 who bought you? see Gal 3:13, Rev 5:9

There are many other verses which talk about how there is [one] of [something] and that one is Jesus, and then elsewhere that one is God. Creator being the prime example.

We are never going to understand the very nature of God, trinity is a way people tried to comprehend Gods nature, but it's never going to allow us to fully understand Him.

Like others have said, I was raised in a Christian church being taught the trinity exists, but never really knowing why. I wasn't able to back up anything about why I believed in the trinity at all. It was only this past year or so I started to really look for Biblical evidence of it. To me at least, I'm satisified in how I now understand the concept of the trinity and I believe it's the best thing we have to do so.

130

Involved with a JW woman

by jonza in

okay so i'm dating a born-in jw woman, she's younger than me and has no kids.

i'm a christian man whos divorced with 2 kids.

we're in love and seriously want to be together.

jonza

BTW, I've already told her I want a prenup to prevent them ever being raised as a JW. She accepted this.

I'm going to get her to read CoC and watch the hassan video. She's already agreed to that too. English isn't her first language so it will take her some time.