designs: why are you bringing Jews into this? I thought this debate was based on the Bible as we know it, OT + NT. I believe the Bible is complete, real and true it is fulness. I'm not trying to debate that issue. I also believe it has been accurately translated. Except for the NWT ofc.
Posts by jonza
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199Trinitarians! Who is Jesus Christ's father the Holy Spirit or the Father?
by booker-t inthis is one question that trinitarians try to avoid because they have created a very embarrassing problem.
the bible is very clear when the angel tells mary that holy spirit will overshadow her and she will become pregnant.
the angel does not say the father will overshadow her but the holy spirit will and if the holy spirit is a person that would make him the father of jesus.
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199
Trinitarians! Who is Jesus Christ's father the Holy Spirit or the Father?
by booker-t inthis is one question that trinitarians try to avoid because they have created a very embarrassing problem.
the bible is very clear when the angel tells mary that holy spirit will overshadow her and she will become pregnant.
the angel does not say the father will overshadow her but the holy spirit will and if the holy spirit is a person that would make him the father of jesus.
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jonza
Isaiah 9:6: " For a child has been born to us, A son has been given to us; And the rulership will rest on his shoulder. His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. "
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199
Trinitarians! Who is Jesus Christ's father the Holy Spirit or the Father?
by booker-t inthis is one question that trinitarians try to avoid because they have created a very embarrassing problem.
the bible is very clear when the angel tells mary that holy spirit will overshadow her and she will become pregnant.
the angel does not say the father will overshadow her but the holy spirit will and if the holy spirit is a person that would make him the father of jesus.
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jonza
According to Revelation 5:11-14 every one will worship Jesus.
Also why do the WT translate the same word for worship as obeisance whenever it comes to Jesus? Every other Bible says worship as it's the same greek word used when it comes to the Father or to Jesus. The concept of the trinity has nothing to do with the worship of Jesus. The Bible says to worship Him; whether you believe in the concept of the trinity or not makes no difference. If you believe what the Bible says you should worship Him.
Jesus the man worships His Father, I don't see why God needs to worship Jesus. I don't see why the Holy Spirit or God would need to worship each other. It was only Jesus the man who worshiped His Father. You are thinking in human terms of a physical Father, where the Father of the Bible is symbolic in terms of authority. Same as the sense the Son, is a term of authority not being. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all YHWH as clearly stated in the Bible.
Jesus is said to be God in the Bible. The Holy Spirit is said to be God in the Bible. The Holy Spirit is said to be Jesus' Spirit in the Bible. The Holy Spirit is said to be Gods Spirit in the Bible. We are said to be able to have Jesus' Spirit inside us in the Bible. We are said to have the Holy Spirit inside us in the Bible. There is said to be only one God in the Bible. There is said to be no other god before or after YHWH in the Bible. There is said to be only one true God in the Bible.
How do you opposes of the trinity make sense of these facts without using the concept of the trinity? I've still yet to see a single statement based on the Bible to explain these things.
So are you going to answer my questions? This, I think is the fourth time I've asked now.
You are the only one without answers. You are the only one who seems confused and incapable of explaining what the Bible teaches.
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199
Trinitarians! Who is Jesus Christ's father the Holy Spirit or the Father?
by booker-t inthis is one question that trinitarians try to avoid because they have created a very embarrassing problem.
the bible is very clear when the angel tells mary that holy spirit will overshadow her and she will become pregnant.
the angel does not say the father will overshadow her but the holy spirit will and if the holy spirit is a person that would make him the father of jesus.
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jonza
I fail to see how that is dishonest. I'm simply waiting on your answers before continuing to keep on answering your questions. I'm more than prepared to answer your questions. Yes they are difficult questions, and I don't pretend to have all the answers- only God does. I nevertheless don't see the point in answering your questions if you refuse to answer mine. All you are doing is making statements with no Biblical evidence to back them up. You are not addressing very specific questions I've asked you.
"Your mistake is to pretend the bible is consistent on christology - it is far from it." Where do you get that from? Hebrews 13:8: Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.
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199
Trinitarians! Who is Jesus Christ's father the Holy Spirit or the Father?
by booker-t inthis is one question that trinitarians try to avoid because they have created a very embarrassing problem.
the bible is very clear when the angel tells mary that holy spirit will overshadow her and she will become pregnant.
the angel does not say the father will overshadow her but the holy spirit will and if the holy spirit is a person that would make him the father of jesus.
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jonza
I'll will continue to answer your question when you answer mine. You've still yet to answer a single one. I'll be waiting.
"You are prevaricating." Speak for yourself..
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199
Trinitarians! Who is Jesus Christ's father the Holy Spirit or the Father?
by booker-t inthis is one question that trinitarians try to avoid because they have created a very embarrassing problem.
the bible is very clear when the angel tells mary that holy spirit will overshadow her and she will become pregnant.
the angel does not say the father will overshadow her but the holy spirit will and if the holy spirit is a person that would make him the father of jesus.
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jonza
Again putting words into my mouth. I said the Father glorfies the Son. I never said He worships Him specifically. However to give Him glory is similar to worship and be translated as worship.
Also, you are resorting to the WT technique of partial quoting. I said that is how I was explained the concept of the trinity as components years ago in church, and it was actually when I was a child. As I explained before the concept of the trinity is three persons and all are God, and that there is only one God.
You have still yet to answer any of my questions directly.
You say I'm advocating heresy, what are your reasons for thinking that? I'm going by what is clear from the Bible. You've not even said what it is you really believe or used Scripture to claim what I am saying is wrong. You're just stating your opinion with nothing to back it up.
Why would the early church need to attmpt to justify worshipping Jesus when He was clearly worshiped in the Bible? I fail to see how that is related.
I'm still waiting on your answers? Why won't you answer any of my questions?
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199
Trinitarians! Who is Jesus Christ's father the Holy Spirit or the Father?
by booker-t inthis is one question that trinitarians try to avoid because they have created a very embarrassing problem.
the bible is very clear when the angel tells mary that holy spirit will overshadow her and she will become pregnant.
the angel does not say the father will overshadow her but the holy spirit will and if the holy spirit is a person that would make him the father of jesus.
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jonza
I like how you put words in my mouth. I never actually said whether the Father worships Jesus or not. John 8:54 says God certainly glorifies Jesus. Revelation 5:12-14, says everyone will worship Jesus. John 5:23 says to honor Jesus just as you honor the Father. Many times God alone is said to be the only one who is to be worshiped. Again, how do you explain this if Jesus is not God yet Jesus is said to be worshiped?
cofty, so far you have been the one avoiding questions... Please answer mine: "How can you explain that there is only one God; no God before him, no God after him; only one true God, no other creator than Jehovah? Yet Jesus is also said to be God and said to be the I AM and the First and the Last and the Alpha and Omega? Do you believe in multiple Gods? Is Jesus a false god, if there is only one true God?"
Can you also answer, in the verses I listed before about how the Bible says, Jesus raised Himself from the dead, then elsewhere, the Holy Spirit raised Him from the dead, then elsewhere the Father raised Him from the dead?
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199
Trinitarians! Who is Jesus Christ's father the Holy Spirit or the Father?
by booker-t inthis is one question that trinitarians try to avoid because they have created a very embarrassing problem.
the bible is very clear when the angel tells mary that holy spirit will overshadow her and she will become pregnant.
the angel does not say the father will overshadow her but the holy spirit will and if the holy spirit is a person that would make him the father of jesus.
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jonza
I don't see it as grasping at straws. It is what the Bible indicates. John 10:30 "The Father and I are one" This isn't necessarily a text to support the trinity in itself, but is supportive of that fact they are in agreement.
You actually ignored my questions: "How can you explain that there is only one God; no God before him, no God after him; only one true God, no other creator than Jehovah? Yet Jesus is also said to be God and said to be the I AM and the First and the Last and the Alpha and Omega? Do you believe in multiple Gods? Is Jesus a false god, if there is only one true God?"
To answer your question. I believe yes he does. I don't think that in any way has to conflict with the concept of the trinity. Now are you going to answer my question? :)
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199
Trinitarians! Who is Jesus Christ's father the Holy Spirit or the Father?
by booker-t inthis is one question that trinitarians try to avoid because they have created a very embarrassing problem.
the bible is very clear when the angel tells mary that holy spirit will overshadow her and she will become pregnant.
the angel does not say the father will overshadow her but the holy spirit will and if the holy spirit is a person that would make him the father of jesus.
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jonza
I will speak for myself, I have an IQ of 158 and have two full Bsc degrees, and yes compared to God almighty my brain is tiny and can't even attempt to understand more than a very basic concept of Him.
3 persons that are in total unison, not comitee. You could describe it as the 3 natures of the same being. In church years ago, I had it explained like you take a person, they have a brain that is like the Father. They have a spirit like the Holy Spirit, and a body like Jesus. Three components, one being that is YHWH. I've heard it also described like time, past present and future, but all are of the same substance and same in nature, but each unque.
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199
Trinitarians! Who is Jesus Christ's father the Holy Spirit or the Father?
by booker-t inthis is one question that trinitarians try to avoid because they have created a very embarrassing problem.
the bible is very clear when the angel tells mary that holy spirit will overshadow her and she will become pregnant.
the angel does not say the father will overshadow her but the holy spirit will and if the holy spirit is a person that would make him the father of jesus.
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jonza
I'm not promoting tritheism at all. That is not the concept of the trinity. The concept of the trinity is a monothestic but it is made up of three individual persons. It is a way to explain the paradox in Bible of there only being one true God: YHWH. However the Father is called God, the Holy Spirit is called God and Jesus is called God several times.
It is a limited concept for our tiny brains to attempt to understand the unlimited infinite greatness of God.