Posts by darkspilver

44

Update to UK “Child Safeguarding Policy”

by wifibandit in

a known poster on this site (anon) says:.

i have just received a text from an elder i've known for decades in my circuit who has some sympathy for my feelings and who is aware of the arc, the uk charity commission, etc., etc.

here it is verbatim, and my reply.

darkspilver

I have been involved in child welfare through sport for many years. Every adequate Child Welfare policy emphasises one key point...
If you become aware of an allegation of child abuse you WILL contact the police or social services. If a child doesn't want you to contact the police you will still contact the police. You should also inform the child welfare officer of your local club or national sport governing body. However this is secondary to your requirement to inform the police or social services.

The Child Protection in Sport Unit has the (financial) support of Sport England

https://www.sportengland.org/our-work/national-partners/child-protection-in-sport-unit/

The CPSU has procedure flowcharts outlining the safeguarding reporting procedures for

1. About the behaviour of the organisation’s staff member or volunteer
2. About the behaviour of another organisation’s staff member or volunteer
3. About children and young people arising out of sport (e.g. within the family at home, at school or in the community)

Looking at the WT's 2012 Policy (Section 8) - it would seem that WT is effectively calling the Elders in the individual congregations 'members of staff', and the trained 'Safeguarding Elders' at the Branch Office, the 'Safeguarding Lead Officer/s'.

https://thecpsu.org.uk/resource-library/2014/outline-safeguarding-reporting-procedure-concerns/
https://thecpsu.org.uk/download/media/2473/outline-case-managament-flowcharts-final-oct14.pdf

44

Update to UK “Child Safeguarding Policy”

by wifibandit in

a known poster on this site (anon) says:.

i have just received a text from an elder i've known for decades in my circuit who has some sympathy for my feelings and who is aware of the arc, the uk charity commission, etc., etc.

here it is verbatim, and my reply.

darkspilver

I have just received a text from an elder I've known for decades in my circuit who has some sympathy for my feelings and who is aware of the ARC, the UK charity commission, etc., etc. Here it is verbatim, and my reply.
"New document about CAbuse. Any member of Cong can ask to see it. Says elders to tell police. Much more in line with real world."
My reply: "Glad to see Satan's wicked legal system forcing change. Shame we can't do it without outside pressure."

Having compared the 2012 and the latest 2017 versions, there appears to be no change regarding reporting to the police? Am I missing something?

2012: [14] A report to the police or other appropriate authorities will be made immediately by the congregation elders if it is determined that a child is still at risk. vi
2017: [13} A report to the police or other appropriate authorities will be made immediately by the congregation elders if it is determined that a child is still at risk. v

I've done a side-by-side comparision of the 2012 and the 2017 versions - if anyone is interested you can view it here

First page sample below:

Side-by-side comparision - all six pages

2012 Version: http://www.silentlambs.org/documents/slukChild_Safeguarding_PolicyJan12.pdf

2017 Version: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4oXVPm4nrmfQ2twLUI2T0toekE/view

12

WT sells branch in Hong Kong for 65M

by Viva la Vida in

jw
friends

http://www.savills.com.hk/_news/article/574/141879-0/12/2015/savills-appointed-sole-agent-for-the-tender-sale-of-12-and-14-kent-road--kowloon-tong.

savills appointed sole agent for the tender sale of 12 & 14 kent road, kowloon tong.

the two-storey property at 14 kent road has a site area and saleable area of 10,771 sq ft and 4,303 sq ft respectively.

darkspilver

How many carts has Anon seen? One, at lunchtime; and it was there for less than 2 hours.

Interesting, is this a change? a directive they've had? - this is from a post three month ago......

scratchme1010
In Hong Kong, however, I noticed that they were a lot more and in a lot more places where I wouldn't think I would see JWs with their carts.
......
Also, there were some people from some kind of Christian denomination singing with guitars and other instruments, and the JW cart was right next to them. They looked as if they were part of the other group.
https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/5636342727835648/cart-witnessing-hong-kong

7

2017 regional convention dates British Columbia

by hoser in

jw
friends

anybody know dates and locations of conventions in bc this year?.

darkspilver

English - 16 to 18 June 2017
South Okanagan Events Centre
853 Eckhardt Avenue W, Penticton BC V2A 9C4

English - 23 to 25 June 2017
Sandman Centre
300 Lorne Street, Kamloops BC V2C 1W1

Chinese (Cantonese) - 7 to 9 July 2017
Greater Vancouver Assembly Hall of Jehovah's Witnesses
15577 82nd Avenue, Surrey BC V3S 2K8

English - 7 to 9 July 2017
CN Centre
2187 Ospika Blvd S, Prince George BC V2N 6Z1

Chinese (Mandarin) - 14 to 16 July 2017
Greater Vancouver Assembly Hall of Jehovah's Witnesses
15577 82nd Avenue, Surrey BC V3S 2K8

English - 21 to 23 July 2017
Rogers Arena
800 Griffiths Way, Vancouver BC V6B 6G1

The Convention held weekend of 21 to 23 July will be partly tied in with the Special Convention that takes place in Toronto on the same dates: https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/5695993188188160/_post/6018766154498048

21

REVEALED: The number of Bethelites over the years

by darkspilver in

jw
friends

in response to this thread.

i've put forward the argument that i believe that the 'organization' is financially effectively bleeding itself dry - it is actually financially imploding.. i believe that over the last 45 or so years, in particular, it has evolved from a relatively 'lean machine' into what is now a huge unwieldy organization.

as an organization grows i would expect increased efficiency through by both economies of scale, and advances in technology.. how has the watchtower organization fared?....

darkspilver

Thanks.

Good points

I fully understand your concern regarding the question of who actually counts as a 'Bethelite' - that is a full-time member of the Bethel Family - with the above figures I've listed above.

The number has been listed annually in the Yearbook (in the Grand Totals page/chart) since the 2006 yearbook - the number is listed as being "a total of XX,XXX ordained ministers staff the branch facilities."

I understand that Bethel is VERY hierarchical and specific with reference to what you are - ie are you an 'actual' member of the Bethel Family. I understood from those that have worked full-time on construction projects alongside working Bethels, including international, they had to be 'careful' - although the congregation they were assigned to viewed them as Bethel Family, they were not! they were construction.

Also note the language used below

Awake 22 December 2000, page 19
Truly, it is remarkable that the number of branch offices has increased from one a hundred years ago to 109 today that serve the needs of Jehovah’s Witnesses in 234 lands. And to think that these are staffed by some 13,000 dedicated Christian volunteers! Surely, their work along with that of the some 5,500 volunteers associated with the Society’s headquarters has been vital to the fulfillment of the prophecy of Jesus Christ that ‘this good news of God’s Kingdom would be preached in all the inhabited earth before the end comes.’—Matthew 24:14.

I haven't included the 13,000 in my table (as it is not precise) but it fits for the number of Bethelites - notice WT makes a clear distinction with 'volunteers associated with the Society's headquarters' - they're not 'Family'.

The numbers (references for which I got from the two WT Index Books under the heading 'Bethel Families') are spoken of by WT in a variety of terms - but all indicate to me that they refer to full-time Bethelites. Apart from the 2007 to 2015 references (with the wording as listed above) the others I used are:

Yearbook 1991, page 9
The full-time ministers who serve at Bethel help keep the publishers in their country organized for Kingdom-preaching and well supplied with literature. In 1980 the worldwide Bethel family numbered 5,039; ten years later the figure is 11,092.

Yearbook 1987, page 11-12
the 8,920 volunteers who serve in the Bethel families

Yearbook 1985, page 58-59
the Society increased the number of Bethel family members by 9.9 percent, for a total of 7,233 worldwide.

Yearbook 1984, page 8
Working at the Society’s headquarters and other factories, offices and farms are 6,582 members of Bethel families.

Yearbook 1981, page 14
During 1980, 5,039 volunteer workers staffed the 98 branch facilities

Yearbook 1979, page 10
At the Brooklyn headquarters there are 1,825 members in the Bethel family, and, together with the 646 serving at Watchtower Farms, we now have a total of 2,471. Earth wide there are upward of 3,000 who enjoy this special privilege of Bethel service. All of them share in preaching the good news of the Kingdom in association with the congregations to which they are assigned.

Yearbook 1977, page 10
Around the world Jehovah’s Witnesses have 97 branch offices. Working in these branch offices there are upward of 3,000 members of Bethel families. The largest group is located at the international headquarters in Brooklyn, New York

Yearbook 1976, page 259
In addition, the Society has operated 96 branch offices, where 3,734 members serve.

Yearbook 1975, page 258
In addition to these expenditures, there were expenses for the upkeep of the Bethel homes, where there are 3,307 persons who work in offices, kitchens, laundries, housekeeping and in the manufacturing of literature—all to further the preaching of the good news

Yearbook 1974, page 255
In addition to these full-time workers that were assisted, we have 2,733 members of the Bethel family working in 95 branch offices.

Yearbook 1973, page 256
The Society, with the help of 2,590 members of the Bethel family in 95 branches, is well prepared to see that everyone has plenty of Bible literature.

Watchtower 1 June 1971, page 335
Additionally, 2,304 served throughout the world as full-time ministers at the Society’s 93 offices producing literature and supervising the ministry of Jehovah’s witnesses.

Yearbook 1970, page 79
Families such as this are found in the 94 branch offices around the world. The other branch offices are not nearly as large as the one in Brooklyn, but all of them are doing the same kind of work. The members of all the Bethel families throughout the world total 2,126.

Yearbook 1969, page 61
World wide there are well over 1,800 individuals

Yearbook 1968, page 286
We also have 1,717 members of the Bethel family working in the 96 branches throughout the world. This is an increase over last year's membership of 1,591.

Yearbook 1967, page 319
In addition to all these full-time workers, we have 1,591 brothers and sisters working in Bethel homes around the world in 95 branches. This is grand!

Yearbook 1965, page 531
Some 1,500 Christian ministers are privileged to serve in what are known as Bethel homes, which are attached to branch offices

Yearbook 1965, page 271
Additionally, the Society operated the Bethel homes where 1,461 full-time workers were employed.

Yearbook 1963, page 49
There are 1,423 members of the Bethel families living at the eighty-seven branch offices of the Watch Tower Society.

Yearbook 1962, page 42
In order to keep up with the world-wide demand for literature the Bethel families have grown to 1,376 members in number.

Yearbook 1961, page 30
In these main offices of supervision known as Bethel homes there are 1,299 ordained Christian ministers working.

Watchtower 1 January 1960, page 25
At the eighty-five branches throughout the world there are large and small Bethel families, and in this group there are 1,236 persons

12

WT sells branch in Hong Kong for 65M

by Viva la Vida in

jw
friends

http://www.savills.com.hk/_news/article/574/141879-0/12/2015/savills-appointed-sole-agent-for-the-tender-sale-of-12-and-14-kent-road--kowloon-tong.

savills appointed sole agent for the tender sale of 12 & 14 kent road, kowloon tong.

the two-storey property at 14 kent road has a site area and saleable area of 10,771 sq ft and 4,303 sq ft respectively.

darkspilver

Thanks - interesting - I note that the original link was to a news story from December 2015, and the two buildings have now been sold

Thanks to the OP's additional link, from a story regarding another (unrelated) property sale nearby in September 2016, it refers to the SOLD prices obtained for 12 and 14 Kent Road:

http://www.scmp.com/property/hong-kong-china/article/2022895/prime-site-kowloon-tongs-beacon-hill-expected-sell-more-hk7
Number 12 Kent Road has a total gross floor area of 6,465 sq ft and sold for HK$260 million, or HK$40,216 per sq ft, while number 14, a total land area of 10,751 sq ft with the plot ratio of 0.6 times and the gross floor area is 6,450 sq ft, sold for HK$238 million, or HK$36,899 per sq ft.

Number 12 Kent Road sold for HK$260 million = US$33.5 million
Number 14 Kent Road sold for HK$238 million = US$30.7 million
TOTAL = $64.2 million

BTW, there are some more, external, photos at the following website - including one that shows the frontage and clearly shows an advertisement for jw.org

http://www.landscope-christies.com/property-detail/kowloon-tong/61e943

21

REVEALED: The number of Bethelites over the years

by darkspilver in

jw
friends

in response to this thread.

i've put forward the argument that i believe that the 'organization' is financially effectively bleeding itself dry - it is actually financially imploding.. i believe that over the last 45 or so years, in particular, it has evolved from a relatively 'lean machine' into what is now a huge unwieldy organization.

as an organization grows i would expect increased efficiency through by both economies of scale, and advances in technology.. how has the watchtower organization fared?....

darkspilver

In response to this thread. I've put forward the argument that I believe that the 'organization' is financially effectively bleeding itself dry - it is actually financially imploding.

I believe that over the last 45 or so years, in particular, it has evolved from a relatively 'lean machine' into what is now a huge unwieldy organization

As an organization grows I would expect increased efficiency through by both economies of scale, and advances in technology.

How has the Watchtower organization fared?...

In 1964 there was one Bethelite for every 686 publishers
In 2015 there was one Bethelite for every 307 publishers

Even with the increased language translation, how can an effective 123% increase in the WT's workforce be justified?

Side note - interesting that there is now a kind of reduction in languages with the WT's withdrawal of the Study WT in simplified French, Italian, Portuguese, and Spanish, effective from May/June 2017.
Letter December 28, 2016 - Re: One Study Edition of The Watchtower in Languages Other Than English

To bring staffing levels down to the 'efficiency' of the mid-1960's - WT needs to lay-off 14,368 Bethelites

They're closing and selling off Branch Offices?

Yes, from a peak during 2009 of 118 Branch Offices down to 89 during 2015. That's a substantial 25% reduction, but most were relatively small Branches, and guess what?... over the same time, the number of actual Bethelites increased by 31%, from 19,829 up to 26,011 - ha! ha! work that one out!

Of course, it is true, Bethelites are now being laid-off - but how many? Well, we await the 2017 Yearbook when I'll update the following chart....

Side note - Nathan Knorr was WT President from 1942 through to 1977 when Fred Franz took over.

31

"Historical" Announcement This Week?

by headisspinning in

my daughter asked if anyone has heard anything about a 'big announcement' being made sometime this week in congregations in canada and possibly beyond... in her words "it's like a biggggg long thing, they cut out part of the book study for it and people heard it was a historical thing"... any ideas?

could it be the mexican branch closing or the theme of the convention?

or something else?

darkspilver

Could it be about the Special Convention taking place during July 2017 in Toronto, Canada?

This convention marks the 90th anniversary of Rutherford's landmark proclamation of Jehovah's 6th trumpet-like judgement in Toronto on Sunday 24 July 1924 at the 'Freedom for the Peoples' Convention as foretold in Revelation 9:12-21.

https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/5695993188188160/_post/6018766154498048

38

If the WT is a "money making machine"...who gets the money?

by NikL in

jw
friends

i've seen claims over the years that wt is in the real estate, book publishing business and is a for profit enterprise at it's core.. can those of you that believe this to be the case tell me who benefits from all this wealth?.

the governing body lives in relatively humble conditions no?.

i've been curious about this for a while.

darkspilver

TBH I believe that the 'organization' is financially effectively bleeding itself dry - and that is were the money is going: The day-to-day running or operating costs are overtaking the income.

"They live humble lives in Bethel?" Maybe, but remember, although a 'humble' cheap cut of meat and two veg might cost less to buy than an expensive posh cut of steak - they both need to be prepared by someone, to be cooked in an oven, to be served by someone, to be cleared up by someone, to have the plates washed by someone - and both need kitchens that are lit and use gas/electricity.

Really, whether you have extravagant gold-plated taps or cheap stainless-steel taps in your bathroom - the operating cost of the hot water running out of them to fill your bath still costs the same.

Bethel workers are extremely hard-workers - I could not do what they - but there's a lot of Bethelites who's job is basically looking after other Bethelites - be it in cleaning, feeding, accomodation maintance, laundry, security - and then those Bethelites looking after the first set of Bethelites need looking after too. And suddenly Bethel starts to become a very service oriented set-up. In the beginning, the 1910s and 1920s, this was probably a very economic and cost effective set-up - but economics change over time, and I believe the breaking point was reached a good few years ago, it's just that the WT, being as big as it is, has been late (again!) to adapt and change with it.

Remember too the US$236 million-a-year cost that WT says is spent in caring for special pioneers, missionaries, and traveling overseers.

And are the rank and file donating? I think that the fact that the WT has been goading congregations into doing a regular 'congregation monthly donation' by resolution is very telling....

Previously, every two weeks, you would pick up a pile of new magazines from the KH - oh, remember to put some money in the contribution box - did you feel guilty about that pile of magazines building up at home that you haven't placed, don't worry, put a bit more in the contribution box, ah don't feel so bad now!

And now? They pick up a couple of single sheet tracts, a couple of very thin mags at the KH before they go out on ministry - not really worth contributing for, do it next week they think.... next week, and oh wait, they're not going out on mnistry this weekend, so no need to pick up tracts, oh and then they forget to contribute for last weeks....

Conventions? New book? Contribute for it! - Oh wait, video only last year, oh, download yourself, oh, forget to contribute.

Watched this month's JW Broadcast? - that'll be a dollar please! each! - do the R&F really contribute lke that? hmm, maybe that's why they kinda need reminding....

15

Question.

by phats in

hi, is there a scripture saying it's okay to beat your wife with a stick no thicker than a mans thumb or is this a myth?

i remember something & have done some serching but need help.

phats.

darkspilver

But the bible does have this law.
Exodus 21:20-21New International Version (NIV)
20 “Anyone who beats their male or female slave with a rod must be punished if the slave dies as a direct result, 21 but they are not to be punished if the slave recovers after a day or two, since the slave is their property.

thanks blondie

the OP may wish to 'find' the above bible reference by getting the JW's Insight book and looking under the heading 'Beating'.

Via the Watchtower Online Library: http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200000592