konceptual99: Thanks darks but we could follow the link *wink*
Yeah, that's cool - it's a busy thread, not the easiest to read IMHO, with a lot of chat going on - just over 180 comments, but only around a dozen or so of them are actually AMA Answers.... talking of which....
You said - "In 7 years as a CO, only 8 of my recommendations were rejected by the branch" - Do you know why these 8 were rejected?
Yes, The Branch would tell me privately. Usually too young, too recent of a reproof, or reputation not good. If your sin became known all the way to the Branch somehow, no way you would bet appointed even with a CO recommendation for at least three or more years.
I would like you to set the record straight: Often there were talks given about women gossiping. However, in my experience, the men are much worse. What's your experience?
Yes the men are much worse. Men gossip under the guise of "protecting" the congregation. So I heard all of it. Who wanted to marry who, who had secret sins, who was ripping off who in their business deals, who couldn't get along, who was dressing provocatively, who was flirting with who. Which pioneer hated which elders and why. I had to sift through all that to see what to do if anything. Every single week. Just ridiculous. The brothers in the hall especially seemed to be more titillated by stuff then trying to help. So yes, absolutely, the men were much worse.
My father is an elder. At their request, he's been called to single sister's homes to "discipline" their child. I know for a fact one of those visits resulted in corporal punishment. Have you ever been asked to do the same thing, or heard of it?
In the country I served, children are normally respectful of their parents and grandparents. You would often see young people helping older people off the bus or giving up their seat. I rarely saw a "rebellious" kid. I never ever heard of someone asked to discipline someone else's child. As for teenagers, with mothers that were single sisters, they almost sometimes had a secret boyfriend or girlfriend that someone found out about. I tried to reason with them but you know how young infatuation is.
How widespread is domestic violence within the org in your experience? Did you encounter it much and how were the victims treated?
I never saw a case. Either I was too stupid to see it or it was well hidden. Most men had a mistress so they were "extra nice" to their wives while keeping their mistress out of sight. In the congregation so many brothers would commit adultery and then try to make it up to their wives. Then they would do it again. If I can remember a case of domestic violence I will post it.
This probably an obscure one... but in a judicial committee dealing with apostasy, did the subject of Adam being created in the year 4026 bce ever come up? Basically, how are such committees handled? Are the accused even given a chance to explain why or whY led them to challenge the WT's position?
I never dealt with a case of apostasy. Crazy I know but no one brought up doctrine. It was always, "What a nice talk, what a nice assembly." "Oh really, what did you like about it?"
"I don't remember but it was a nice talk."
In other words, no one cared about doctrine. Yes in the missionary home we discussed it but in my visits it was very superficial as far as doctrine.
That being said, we did discuss at Ministerial Training School how to deal with apostasy. Nip it in the bud. Attempt to "reason" with the person where they learned the "truth" and to be patient. If they continue, then protect the congregation.
But I never had to take those steps with anyone. Those who left just bolted and we never heard from them again.
We did hear that a former missionary from Canada had become apostate. Everyone commented about it.
Do you think some higher ups know it is BS and what motivates them?
Another great question.
My opinion is that they refuse to allow themselves to consider that it could all be false. All of these logical fallacies, Sunk Cost, Ad Hominem, False Dichotomy, I had no idea what they were and I don't think the higher ups know either. All we knew was that we have the "truth" and that we are imperfect. So we keep plodding along. There are meetings to go to and talks to give. Busy, busy, busy. I met with Zone overseers and Branch Coordinators and Bethel heavies over the years. I never noticed a hint of doubt. One of the recent JW TV broadcasters is my old pioneer partner when I was a young teenager. I have known him for 30 years. He never would even CONSIDER that it could be false. Of course he talks about the cracks but he still sees the wall as a good thing. Strong.
Yet I have slowly learned to dissect teachings and analyze and question, how? On THIS forum and the jehovahs-witness.com forum! At first I was scared, shaking even. But I started to learn.
It's like living being surrounded by a huge wall. It's so high you know you could never scale it but you feel safe inside. You never stop to check out the individual bricks that are holding the wall up. That's what the higher ups do in my opinion. They just keep going and don't think about it.
But what starts happening sometimes is that you see something that isn't true then you see something else that isn't true. You see little chips in the wall. I saw a crack with the 1914 generation change. But the wall still stands. Then as a CO I saw elders lying and cheating. More cracks. Then you see a huge gash. More teachings that don't make sense or crazy things happening in the congregations. The wall is not as strong as you thought it was. But no one else seems to notice it. Everyone else is ignoring it. If you point out a crack then someone will tell you to look at how big the wall is and how strong it is. "No wall is perfect, it has blemishes." So you keep going. Time for the meeting! Time for service! Time to teach pioneer school! We are all imperfect so don't criticize! Years go by. More responsibilities. You go to visit Brooklyn and see others who have dedicated more time than you have. So you respect them and their choice. Then you get more privileges! You feel important. You feel you must defend the organization. Don't point out the cracks we all are imperfect! Keep visiting congregations and keep serving and encouraging. The end is close we are almost there!
When do the walls come down? When did my walls come down? Those little cracks that some denied were there were real. Then I saw other cracks. Then I saw holes.
And then one day, I saw the door. It was open.
I've heard that if a CO got too fat they could be asked to step down as a CO.
I heard it's because of insurance?
Just what I heard, liability purposes. It kinda also sets a bad example, to be preaching modesty and being healthy (spiritual and physical) while standing there looking like that fat guy who is about to explode in monty pythons the secret of life.
The CO's where I served has to walk 5-10 miles a day in the heat. So I never saw an obese CO there. But I think you are correct. The Branch can remove you for obesity. In fact, they can remove you for anything they want.
What do you do for work now with such a large gap in your resume and no jobs given out by the "friends"?
I can't say what I do for work now it may give me away. Not many Witnesses do it. I don't earn much though I have to work a lot. No college degree.
Are you married now? Children?
Yes a beautiful wife and children. I could be a grandpa but instead I have little children! It's a wonderful life. I'm late to the party but I made it.
In light of the recent article that said the FDS is neither inspired nor infallible, what did you believe in regards to being spirit directed? Not just the leaders but across the board.
To clarify I'll give an example. My understanding was that they are imperfect but the holy spirit would lead them to the right answer maybe even using that imperfection. But when I got DFed a friend of mine asked if I really played up how sorry I was. When asked why, he said because the elders are just men and you need to convince them. That really shook me.
I believed that too. Somehow I worked it out in my mind. I remember in my missionary assignment a 17 yr old was appointed as an elder. Yep. Someone put his name in the elder recommendation column. He was in a rural area and he was supposed to be recommended as a servant. The Branch missed it and stamped their approval. When the CO came round again he had to delete him and then recommend him as a servant. At our CO meeting with the Branch they blamed it on us not doing the paperwork correctly. Holy Spirit? That bothered me for a long time. How did that happen?
