Posts by OneEyedJoe

225

Cult or Religion

by Richard C B in

what is a cult and what is a religion?

its open to debate.

who has the authority to say for certain what is a cult and what is a religion?

OneEyedJoe

The only flaw i can see right now is its all negative. one could argue that for example someone could have been a wife beater and a drunkard and the wife because of cultural or other reasons put up with that situation. Then the husband studies the bible and turns his life around and becomes a great husband. His interpretation has a very positive outcome so in his particular case the said religion or cult has not been DANGEROUS but has been greatly beneficial to him and his family.

Things aren't always so black and white. Yes, in this case it's possible that the cult could actually help someone. That said, it is my strong opinion that there is always another avenue of support/help that would be of greater benefit than the cult would be, without the strong side effects from being in the cult. There are groups that will help a person who beats his wife or who drinks that don't also, for example, require you to sign a card that states that you will give your life in support of the group should you need a blood transfusion.

The cult is like heroine. If you need to undergo emergency surgery and heroine is all you've got, it might save your life if the surgery is performed while you're doped up. It would, however come at a risk of addiction that could later ruin your life. It would be immensely better if modern anesthetic were used. Just because heroine could help someone in this case isn't a reason to advocate for its frequent use.

225

Cult or Religion

by Richard C B in

what is a cult and what is a religion?

its open to debate.

who has the authority to say for certain what is a cult and what is a religion?

OneEyedJoe

I would pretty much guarantee most who say its a cult have been disfellowshipped and have regrets.
E.G. someone may have passed over a career opportunity because they wanted,, at the time,, to prioritize preaching. And years later leave the cong. then regret and become bitter.

You should really spend a lot more time around here and you'll find that you couldn't be more off base. There are many who are still 'in' and believe it is a cult. I was never DF'd, and I really have no major regrets and made only a few sacrifices for the cult, but still strongly feel that it's a cult. In fact in some ways the cult kept me out of trouble and benefited me. In the end my greatest regrets are how I treated a few people that weren't in the cult and that I allowed myself to be controlled and sacrificed my intellectual honesty for so long.

You also state that the dictionary definition of a cult is that it must have a charismatic leader - well the founder of JWism, CTR, was that person. His successor, who I'd say really finished the job of turning it into a cult, was also a single charismatic leader. Generally cults are relatively small, but this one grew large and was thus eventually able to sustain a group of leaders, but the concept is the same. Your use of this point to rebut the description of the JWs as a cult falls flat.

225

Cult or Religion

by Richard C B in

what is a cult and what is a religion?

its open to debate.

who has the authority to say for certain what is a cult and what is a religion?

OneEyedJoe

The cult status is only evident to them when they leave that said religion and become resentful and regret choices they have made because at the time they made decisions which may have been greatly influenced by there beliefs. Or someone may after leaving that said religion, on bad terms, have an axe to grind and go out of there way to convince themselves and others its a cult.

I'll present myself as a counter point to this. I was born-in. Before I woke up, and before I had done any reading about how cults work, I started to suspect that the JWs were a cult. This was, obviously, deeply unsettling and it happened frequently. When they talked about disfellowshipping, alarms that screamed "CULT" went off in my head. But they had a (misinterpreted) scripture to back it up and I was no bible scholar so I didn't feel qualified to challenge their interpretation. It must just have been that god had decided to set up his organization in a way that resembles a cult.

There were several things that I saw/heard and thought "If I were setting up a cult, that's definitely something that I'd use." These were: the ban on higher education, warnings against "independent thinking," disfellowshipping, admonition to stay away from non-JWs, superfluous and unscriptural requirements like the beard ban and dress/grooming, admonition to avoid being proud of your own accomplishments, the simultaneous and contradictory statements that it's your fault if you stumble someone yet it's also your fault if someone stumbles you. I'm probably forgetting a few, and obviously I've since learned of many more things that they use to control people.

My point is that I didn't decide that it was a cult after leaving and seeing that I'd been manipulated. When I found TTATT, it simply confirmed for me that it was a cult.

As Cofty said, it's a spectrum. The line between cult and religion is a little blurry, but JWs are so far over the line that I think there can be little doubt about their status. There are several of their doctrines/practices that solidify this in my mind, but another strong indicator is the fact that when normal people talk about their religion and how it affects them and how they feel about their faith I can't relate at all. The only "religious" experiences that I've found that I can relate to are those shared by people who left other groups that are widely regarded as cults. Furthermore, I've found that no non-JW can really relate to my experience in the cult, no matter how religious they are.

5

Trinity

by Stephanie Twist in

do jw believe in the trinity?

if yes, why and if no, why

OneEyedJoe

They do not, primarily because there is no scriptural evidence. The concept of the trinity was conceived well after the new testament was written. In my mind the trinity was invented essentially to resolve many of the confusing mismatches between the gospels, the christian writings and the old testament. JWs tend to resolve these conflicts in other ways, usually by deferring to the old testament or by rationalizing the behavior of the vindictive god of the OT and trying to cast it in a light that makes it consistent with the god of the NT.

3

Watchtower

by Stephanie Twist in

what is the watchtower?

why do kingdom halls think it is important to go over a session during the services?

OneEyedJoe

It's a magazine published by the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, the corporation that heads the JW organization. They feel that it's important to study because the cult says so. It's more complicated than that, but that's what it boils down to.

37

This morning's magazine trolley encounter..

by GodZoo in

was just out shopping and came across two middle aged female witnesses with their magazine trolley..

i approached them and they were all glee and smiles and ready to hand me a couple of magazines.

one moment ladies i have just a couple of questions..

OneEyedJoe

tornapart - Yes it hurts to learn TTATT. But the JW religion is like a splinter. The longer you wait to cut it out, the more painful taking it out is...if the splinter has been there for long it will surely be infected, swollen and extremely sensitive. But everyone knows that the short-term pain is worthwhile to not have to live your life with a dull ache in your thumb in perpetuity. Soon the memory of the pain will fade and you'll be able to live your life free and on your own terms.

16

Your Religion Is Dispicable

by freemindfade in

http://www.jw.org/en/news/legal/by-region/world/jehovahs-witnesses-in-prison-2/.

the witnesses make reference to article 18 of the international covenant on civil and political rights, in reference to their not being able to practice their religion in certain places.

how despicable when (in my mind) their policy of disfellowshipping, apostasy, etc, causes them coerce members to keep this religion.

OneEyedJoe

Was a little bored here at work so I decided to do some quick research and pull together just how hypocritical these bastards are:

From the link in the OP:

The right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion” is a fundamental human right, states Article 18 of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights. In some lands the exercise of this basic freedom by Jehovah’s Witnesses brings imprisonment and even cruel mistreatment. Most of those imprisoned are young men who conscientiously object to military service. Others are imprisoned merely for practicing their faith.

Maybe these ones that were imprisoned shouldn't have been insisting that they be given every lawful right.

Hmmmmm....

Young people ask, Vol 1, p36,37:

Let your reasonableness become known to all men,” recommends the Bible. (Philippians 4:5) The original word translated “reasonableness” meant “yielding” and conveyed the attitude of one who did not insist on all his lawful rights. How can you apply that counsel?

w04 9/1 p. 11,12:

When the conscience of a fellow Christian could be offended by what we do, brotherly love will move us to be considerate and restrict our choices. An example of this might be the use of alcoholic beverages. A Christian is permitted to drink wine in moderation. But if doing so might stumble his companion, he will not insist on his rights.

I wonder if failing to place proper emphasis on Jesus might stumble a "fellow" christian ("fellow" in quotes because for a JW to consider christians to be fellow christians, JWs would first have to actually be christians). If so, shouldn't they not insist on their rights to avoid such a stumbling?

g03 5/8 p. 27:

On the other hand, loyal Christians would not insist on their personal rights to the detriment of the consciences of others or at the expense of congregation unity. Nor should they claim freedom of action to do something clearly forbidden by God’s Word.

Their insistence on their right to preach their cult in areas where christianity at large is accepted certainly breaks up the unity of the existing christian congregations there. Furthermore, "they claim freedom of [religion]" when shunning family members (failure to show love is clearly forbidden in god's word) and enforcing an unscriptural blood ban (murder is also a big one in the bible, negligent or otherwise) among many other things. Why do they insist on their rights in these instances, especially when the individual conscience of JWs might move them to show love for a disfellowshipped child or to allow their child to have a blood transfusion to save their life?

Ok, obviously saying they shouldn't preach because it might offend someone is taking this a bit too far, but this does go to illustrate that not only do they tacitly ignore the rights of individual JWs by seeking retribution when they leave but they actively encourage their membership to relinquish their rights in order to better support the cult. I found these 3 examples in about 1 minute of searching and I'm certain there are dozens if not hundreds more because this bullshit about not insisting on your rights was one of the things that always bothered me, and it stuck out often at watchtower studies. This constant indoctrination dispensing with the rights of the individual is, I suspect, one of the major factors for the failure of JW families to report child abuse when they're told not to by elders. This single subtle teaching of theirs is partially responsible for a tremendous amount of human suffering. Their behavior is absolutely abhorrent on so many levels.

8

Bartender - Update 3

by Garrett in

sorry for long delay for update.. short story shorter - walked in way too late, she walked by, didn't say hi, i didn't say hi, she left to work, i left the bar.

4 friends got into a huge fight and were kicked out.

now i'll be going there alone.. to be honest, though, i think i'm just gonna pass on relationships all together.

OneEyedJoe

Considering the number of variables in play, anyone running the odds would find it difficult to believe that anyone has ever had a successful relationship. Just because you didn't knock it out of the park on the first go isn't a reason to give up. Focus on the progress you made and use that going forward. Keep trying and when things are right it'll work out.

16

Your Religion Is Dispicable

by freemindfade in

http://www.jw.org/en/news/legal/by-region/world/jehovahs-witnesses-in-prison-2/.

the witnesses make reference to article 18 of the international covenant on civil and political rights, in reference to their not being able to practice their religion in certain places.

how despicable when (in my mind) their policy of disfellowshipping, apostasy, etc, causes them coerce members to keep this religion.

OneEyedJoe

In some lands the exercise of this basic freedom by Jehovah’s Witnesses brings [...] cruel mistreatment.

Hey, they're talking about us!

"In some lands" means "anywhere there are JWs that later decide they don't want to be JWs."

19

So changes were made, but who cares because were so deep into the end, nothing the Organization does, really matters—does it?

by John Aquila in

so i called a few jwdubs that still talk to me, not to try to convince them of anything or wake them up but to try to get a feedback on how they took the big meeting change and other announcements.

generally speaking, all the ones i talked to were not even fazed by the changes.

many of them still didnt even realize the meeting format had changed and thought the layoffs were a normal thing that happens all the time.

OneEyedJoe

In contrast, we have seen over 100 years of failed predictions, outlandish teachings, etc. What we have seen is sort of like Moses getting the Israelites backed up to the Red Sea, holding up his staff, and nothing happening, and Moses instructing the isrealites to cross the red sea anyway, insisting that it had been parted 'invisibly'. We have not been given reason to put implicit trust in the org and/or GB. In fact, we've been given ample reason not to trust.

Fixed that for you, magnum