Steve2 - I agree that there's nothing intrinsically wrong with it, but the way the WT does it is deceptive. If you read online news articles you'll often see a list at the bottom of what they changed since first posting the story. I've read articles 10 minutes after they were posted and they had already gotten a correction or two made and listed at the end - it would be easy in cases like that to fix it and hope no one saw it, but they don't because they have some journalistic integrity. The watchtower, on the other hand, prints hard copies of their magazines and leaves the version up for months only to change it later without acknowledgement of any kind. Look at the January 2015 awake that they changed - you'll find absolutely no acknowledgement anywhere of the change.
OneEyedJoe
JoinedPosts by OneEyedJoe
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2015 WT CD ROM Trying to Hide the Past
by The Searcher inwhen installing, it asks if you'd like to receive automatic updates via the internet.. in other words, "we will re-write our history without you knowing what was written previously.".
the corporation knows that many will never exchange their cd rom for the puerile online library, so doctoring their previous "truths" is the best solution.. a bit like the creed painted on the barn door in "animal farm.
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OneEyedJoe
I'm interested to know the back story of the photo. -
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2015 WT CD ROM Trying to Hide the Past
by The Searcher inwhen installing, it asks if you'd like to receive automatic updates via the internet.. in other words, "we will re-write our history without you knowing what was written previously.".
the corporation knows that many will never exchange their cd rom for the puerile online library, so doctoring their previous "truths" is the best solution.. a bit like the creed painted on the barn door in "animal farm.
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OneEyedJoe
Or it could be just a way of updating the software that runs the library - but you carry on being overy suspicious and paranoid
Is it really overly suspicious when they have a well verified history of changing their past literature when what they previously printed becomes inconvenient? They changed many statements that referenced 1975 to remove the year for a more general phrase. They changed references to the preaching work being completed in the 19th century, to be more general after the year 2000 came and went. They've more recently removed a misquote from a biologist when it became too embarrassing (don't tell me they did this out of altruism, because if they had they would've printed a retraction in addition to removing the quote) for them.
They have a well established past of using whatever means possible to revise their history to make it more palatable. You assert that it's overly suspicious and paranoid to expect this of them, I assert that it would be incredibly naive not to.
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Evolution a Fact - Agreed but So What?
by LAWHFol inin many debates between believers and non believers (nb), the nb uses evolution as some sort of proof to support the non existence of god.. i agree that evolution is a fact, however i feel that evolution is proof of some sort of benevolent original cause.. if i were to create an a.i.
, i would program into it the ability to self-refactor and evolve.. i would also randomly inject viruses into the program (evil) where the a.i.
would be forced to stretch its current capabilities & modify it's operating functions in order to get through the random virus, and continue living.. with a steady flow of different viruses, the a.i.
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OneEyedJoe
Evolution is unavoidably in conflict with the doctrine of fundamental Christianity.
I tend to agree with what u heard from the platform at a JW meeting: if evolution is true then there was no Adam. If there was no Adam then there was no original sin. If there was no original sin then there is no need for Jesus.
The speaker thought he was making a case against evolution but was really making a case against Christianity
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"If I wasn't born a JW, I would never have become one."
by OneEyedJoe ini've seen it mentioned by a few on the forum that at some point there was a realization that had they not been born a jw, they never would've converted no matter how many times the jws tried to study with them.
this was my experience too, and i'm wondering how universal it is for those that were born-in but eventually left.
i think i started having this thought (more specifically that if i were not born a jw, i would surely have become an atheist by now) in my late teens.
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OneEyedJoe
I've seen it mentioned by a few on the forum that at some point there was a realization that had they not been born a JW, they never would've converted no matter how many times the JWs tried to study with them. This was my experience too, and I'm wondering how universal it is for those that were born-in but eventually left.
I think I started having this thought (more specifically that if I were not born a JW, I would surely have become an atheist by now) in my late teens. For a decade I lived with this thought popping up frequently whenever I had a moment to think abstractly about things or when I pondered cosmology, evolution or morality. But all the while I continued believing (or trying to) and praying (usually as a hedge) and attending meetings and saying all the right things. In hindsight my ability to empathize with the "worldly" people at the door who might have good hearts but would want nothing to do with JWs was probably a large part of my apathy towards the ministry.
Because of this nagging thought, a sense of relief accompanied all the feelings of betrayal, loss, foolishness, and anger that washed over me in the moment I realized that, without a doubt, I had been born into a cult. I knew at that moment that while I had been lied to, manipulated and exploited by everyone I'd ever cared for that I was also finally free to be honest with myself. I was free from having to ask something of others that I knew I never would have done myself.
For those that were born-in, did you ever realize that you never would've joined if not for the circumstances of your birth? If you did, how long did you live with that knowledge before finally and fully waking up?
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Starlight in a Young Universe
by Perry inthe scientific method begins with a faith statement called a hypothesis, and then goes on to look for evidence, for or against support of the faith statement.. secular materialists often change their ideas on exactly how things have made themselves, but never whether they did.. the manifesto for this self imposed mental ban seems to be summed up by geneticist richard lewontin:.
‘our willingness to accept scientific claims that are against common sense is the key to an understanding of the real struggle between science and the supernatural.
we take the side of science in spite of the patent absurdity of some of its constructs, in spite of its failure to fulfill many of its extravagant promises of health and life, in spite of the tolerance of the scientific community for unsubstantiated just-so stories, because we have a prior commitment, a commitment to materialism.. it is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated.
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OneEyedJoe
Thanks Perry. I'm now stupider for having read that. -
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Is proselytizing less condescending when evolutionists do it?
by paul from cleveland inis it just me?
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OneEyedJoe
I have that answer quite unsettling.
I think this may be a fundamental difference between theists and atheists. The discomfort of not having certainty about everything is too unsettling so the possibility is rejected regardless of merit.
No amount of copy and paste about our DNA or common ancestor and whatever which change the fact in a relatively short period of time or milli-second in evolutionary terms can explain who one species went from cave paintings to putting a man on the moon.
The vast majority of the difference between those who made cave paintings and those that put men on the moon come down to incremental technological advances which in turn paved the way for societal and organizational advances, which further supported more technological advances. In short, we've had all the genetic machinery for the capability to put men on the moon for a very long time, it's just taken us a long time of writing down every generation's advancements so that the next had a little more of a head start. In short, the primary difference between the humans that were living in small tribes in caves and us today is that when we got here there were already schools and books explaining generations worth of knowledge to us.
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Memorial Invitation
by sloppyjoe2 inhow do you faders/inactive handle being asked to the memorial by family?
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OneEyedJoe
If I get a paper invite, I'll handle it the same way that 99.99999% of people do - toss it into the trash without looking at it.
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Just realized this recently - as a JW, I never "owned" any of my accomplishments or talents & abilities....
by Muddy Waters injust realized this recently - as a jw, i never "owned" any of my accomplishments or talents & abilities....we were always told how we are nothing, just specks of dust, grasshoppers, worms.... lowly, despicable sinners in need of redemption, born into sin & misery, constantly facing temptations that we could never handle on our own but only with "jehovah's help"... so we were continually marginalized, all our abilities and talents... they would even quote scriptures that said things like "why should we boast as if we didn't receive these abilities..?
"it was a weird mentally psychotic dichotomy -- being told we were worthless sinners, undeserving of god's kindness -- and on the other hand being the only ones who would survive the great day of jehovah the almighty god at armageddon.
(well, probably, maybe, if we did enough and *kept* doing enough...)so we didn't "own" any of our abilities and accomplishments.
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OneEyedJoe
Yeah, this is a key point that I don't think gets as much attention as it deserves in places like this. It's a little more abstract than debating points of doctrine, failed date prophecies, etc so I think the tendency may be not to give it much attention. The fact is, though, that this is one of the key ways that the cult enslaves people. By stripping everyone in the cult of any personal value or self-worth, they keep them as drones without the self confidence to believe they can make it on their own. This contributes in a large way to the "where else will I go" thought stopper that is so prevalent with those that see the problems but remain trapped in nonetheless.
I started to see issues with this philosophy probably in my late teens and it only got worse as I entered college and the work force. Especially when drawing a contrast to the average JW I was intelligent and knew that I wanted to work in a field where I could use my mind. For a long time I was made to feel guilty due to this desire. It wasn't humble. It didn't give attention to god. I shouldn't think so much of myself. I'm glad I didn't listen. This sort of indoctrination is just another component of what keeps people from trusting that they know better when they see things like the overlapping generation nonsense or the abuse issues or whatever. They beat you down to think that you're so completely worthless, they strip away anything that makes you unique or especially talented so that when a doubt arises you think so little of yourself that you cannot fathom to go against the cult and trust yourself.
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Congrats to Kim Mikey!
by awake!watcher incongrats to kim mikey, mike and kim reached 3000 subscribers on their youtube channel!
go check em out!
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OneEyedJoe
Kim & Mikey are "nuts" and "give apostates a bad name"?
WTF? Those two seem like some of the most genuine people I've ever heard talk about the WatchTower cult.
They are a bit more "country" living in the southwest USA. But oh hey! Let's praise John Cedars, who shamelessly struts around looking like a disgruntled, out-of-work postal employee with a bad attitude. Yeah, he's a real winner. *GAG*
If Mike and Kim had been the first apostates that I encountered when I started looking online, it definitely would've delayed my waking up. From what I've seen, Mike and Kim just seem to be making videos to taunt, belittle, and laugh at JWs. There doesn't seem to be an ounce of concern for active JWs, they start their videos with taunts like "active JWs might as well just turn this off right now because we're going to look at old light from old literature!" And often laugh heartily at absurd doctrine that, I will admit, would be funny if not for the millions that it has enslaved. I've not seen one video that would make a believing JW think they're anything but bitter angry apostates trying to justify their wrong lifestyle. I'm incredibly thankful that I found Paul Grundy's work well before I found theirs.
I will say that Cedars is probably not helping things with his personal grooming...and some of his videos (like the prank call to AMIII) would likely do more harm than good for a believing JW that happens upon them, but at least he usually seems to express genuine disappointment and concern for the way JWs are enslaved and for the clear flaws in doctrine and policy. Maybe his appearance is a turn off but I think for most JW men it doesn't take long to realize that if he's right about what he's saying, it makes sense that he might enjoy the freedom to have a beard upon leaving. Again, I'm glad I found jwfacts first, but I don't think Cedars would've sent me running back to the cult like Mike and Kim would've.
As cathartic and humorous as it can be to poke fun at our former beliefs with those that can relate, it's certainly not helpful for still-in JWs to be broadcasting it all over the internet without at least mitigating it a little to show concern and empathy for those who are still enslaved by these beliefs. To me Mike and Kim are only one step better than those that picket conventions - they simply give weight to the watchtower's assertion that apostates are angry, bitter, mentally diseased ones looking to gather followers. I see that this criticism can apply to Cedars too, but it's certainly to a lesser extent.
That's just my opinion, though. Who knows...maybe there's someone out there to whom their apparently inebriated manner appeals and maybe they'll free a few. I certainly hope they help more than they hurt, I just see that they're taking a great deal of unnecessary risk if it is truly their goal to help JWs that might be having doubts.