Posts by OneEyedJoe

12

"Shunning" - now a Watchtower word?

by slimboyfat in

i know jws have long used the word "shun" in a general sense, as in "shun what is bad".

but i think they have long avoided using the word in relation to disfellowshipping.

in external media or literature wherever the word "shunning" was used in a piece about jws it was usually a good indication it was critical of watchtower and not a neutral or supportive commentary.

OneEyedJoe

Yeah this definitely looks like an about-face to me too. Like the others have said, I've been told I sound like an apostate for using the word in relation to disfellowshipping.

44

For those who are still in... What do you do about field service?

by Wait For It in

jw
friends

for those of you who are still in because of family circumstances, what do you do about field service?

do you still go regularly, sporadically or not at all?.

if you do still go, how do you manage?

Probably won't help you but I always tried to get put in a car group that'd end up with an odd number and volunteer to go to doors by myself. Then just don't knock and say people were home and not interested so they don't get done as not at homes. Every so often I'd put a house on the do not call list.

If you think you might get in the position where you might have to offer magazines to someone, slip a note inside that says "sorry to bother you today, I'm trapped in this cult and keeping up appearances." Or something like that. As DY said you take down the call but throw it away when you get home. Take solace in the fact that even trying your very hardest in the recruiting work, there's only a small chance you'd ever convert someone. Doing it half-assed just for appearances, you're not going to hurt anyone else.

Aside from that, just get through the miserable affair like most JWs do: stay in the car as much as possible and take lots of long breaks.

Wish you the best of luck. I remember the days when I was still faking it and how hard it was. Take care of yourself - after a morning recruiting spring for a massage or some shopping or something else to unwind and release the tension.

41

Non-JW music teacher talks about JW.org

by Watchtower-Free in

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnzgd8oa2re .

OneEyedJoe

I'm not sure I understand the hate for someone trying to"deconvert" JW kids. He doesn't appear to be pushing any particular replacement ideology, and when he talked about studying with JWs it was all about asking questions they couldn't answer. Besides it's not like teachers don't routinely push their own agenda be it environmental, political, economic or social. Furthermore how can someone be "deconverted" if they don't want to? Is everyone still subscribing to the JW notion that people are so weak and easily influenced that you have to carefully guard your reading material and association lest your faith be destroyed without your having any say in the matter? This is a guy that appears to be genuinely concerned for the well-being of kids that are throwing their lives away in service of a damaging, manipulative cult.

Would people be saying he's crossed a line if he called CPS due to physically abusive parents? To me that's a much more extreme measure to take than just asking the kid some questions to give him something to think about. He's not physically removing the kid from the home like CPS might, he's just doing a little too try to empower kids to leave an emotionally and mentally abusive situation that can be just as damaging, in some cases more so, as a physical abusive home.

77

New commentary on revelation coming up?

by EdenOne in

i heard through the grapevine about a forthcoming book:.

together through the great tribulation - come to jehovah's mountain.

still awaiting solid confirmation though.

OneEyedJoe

For the people saying it'll never happen - I don't know if I agree. The title given seems plausible and goes along with the current trend of content that appeals to people purely on an emotional level. I can see them redoing the revelation book and leaving out the bulk of the prophetic interpretation and simply focusing on the frightening imagery and the happy ending. It wouldn't be that difficult to make a short illustrated book (probably with scary videos to go along with some sections) that talks about the terror of the great tribulation without really focusing on things like the UN being the scarlet colored wild beast. They've revised the interpretation of Gog of Magog so they've already inched towards revising some of the doctrine on revelation.

Also, if they're ever going to revise the 144k thing to be figurative, this would be the way to do it too.

Lastly, saying "they don't have anyone smart enough to write an interpretation of revelation" assumes that they're aware of their weaknesses. If they're really buying their own bullshit and think god is with them, there's nothing they'd be afraid to try to interpret and prognosticate on, assuming they'd get it right by virtue of being guided by holy spirit. I think enough of the GB are probably sufficiently genuine believers that any who are purely in it for the lifestyle would have to go along with something like this. I don't know a ton about the GB members, but the two most front facing ones (at least it seems to me that they are) - Lett and Morris - are too stupid or too arrogant (or both) respectively to consider the possibility that they might not be up to the task of interpreting revelation. As for the others: Herd is clearly a complete buffoon as evidenced by his "women have smaller brains" comments; Deciding whether to do a revelation book is probably outside of Jackson's department (as it seems everything is judging by his ARC testimony); Loesch doesn't have any control over the watchtower society if his signed affidavit is to be believed; Splane is probably just going along with whatever to try to keep the gravy train going so he can die in his new compound, so he wouldn't care; Sanderson is left as the only wild card that might worry about doing it, and he's the most junior member and would probably just go along with whatever the others decide. Snide comments aside, my point is that thinking there's something these idiots wouldn't dare do or that they're aware enough of their failings to shrink from the challenge is betting on something for which there is no evidence.

Obviously this isn't confirmed, but it seems plausible at least.

Edit: I agree regarding the cover - that doesn't look like something they'd produce.

22

Former Jehovah's Witness admits: We targeted grief-stricken as 'ripe fruit'

by Londo111 in

http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/80708572/former-jehovahs-witness-admits-we-targeted-grief-stricken-as-ripe-fruit.

jehovah's witnesses target grief and see the recently bereaved as "ripe fruit" for conversion, a former elder of the faith says.. vince and michele tylor spoke out after reading the story of wellington woman jean sergent-shadbolt, who received a handwritten letter from a jehovah's witness three months to the day after her step-cousin, friend and flatmate died.. a current senior elder of the faith says it has no policy to target grieving, and those who do so are acting on their own initiative.

however, he concedes such people may feel guided by jehovah's witness literature.. but vince tylor said he knew of members who would trawl though obituaries to find grieving people, or visit cemeteries.. "not only do we see watchtower printed material suggesting and supporting writing letters from obituaries such as what jean received, but we even have reports and articles of encouragement for jws to go to cemeteries to look for people as well.".

OneEyedJoe

I am not trying to defend the WT but I recall a number of years ago how some sister got my ex wife to go through the news paper obituary and write to people who had just lost a loved one. After one elder told my ex that this was frowned on by the WT but then like everything else when it comes to the WT, it is possible their policies have changed on this issue.

That's the sort of thing that will vary from congregation to congregation based on the elders. Since there's no official encouragement to do this (yes, there are examples given, but I'm not aware of it being actually encouraged that JWs do this - i.e. nothing in the KM suggesting it as a method for preaching like they do letter writing or phone calling in general), it will depend on the individual elders and how they balance the urgency of preaching against the need to be considerate to non-believers. Some elders will see that this practice probably will put off more than it'll recruit and others are going to be driven solely by the possibility of reaching that one person at the moment they ~~are most vulnerable~~ have the right heart condition.

15

Orwell's 1984- a text book for the GB?

by purrpurr in

jw
friends

i'm in the middle of studying 1984 by george orwell .

it's a frightening book but more so for me because it's describing the borg to the letter almost just by another name.. right down to the changing of history to suit bb doctrine, the younger generation not believing anymore but finding ways around the rules to live their own lives.

the culture of squealing on others and kids being taught to do that even to their own parents.

OneEyedJoe

I don't think they use the book as a guide, but rather, any and all oppressive and totalitarian systems generally follow the same pattern. "1984" reflects that pattern in a fictional setting, but the pattern exists and has existed independently for centuries.

I tend to agree with this. I think cults like the JWs often evolve slowly (though, admittedly, some cult leaders seem to have a more purposeful approach to using BITE control on people) by the leadership trying various things and the stuff that works they keep and the stuff that doesn't they discard. Due to commonalities in the way people's brains are wired, cults tend to evolve following certain trends that most of us know to follow the BITE model for control.

Animal farm is another great book if you enjoyed 1984. That one is uncanny in similarity to the JWs as well - particularly in the way they capture new light and the unsaid rules of the cult.

22

Former Jehovah's Witness admits: We targeted grief-stricken as 'ripe fruit'

by Londo111 in

http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/80708572/former-jehovahs-witness-admits-we-targeted-grief-stricken-as-ripe-fruit.

jehovah's witnesses target grief and see the recently bereaved as "ripe fruit" for conversion, a former elder of the faith says.. vince and michele tylor spoke out after reading the story of wellington woman jean sergent-shadbolt, who received a handwritten letter from a jehovah's witness three months to the day after her step-cousin, friend and flatmate died.. a current senior elder of the faith says it has no policy to target grieving, and those who do so are acting on their own initiative.

however, he concedes such people may feel guided by jehovah's witness literature.. but vince tylor said he knew of members who would trawl though obituaries to find grieving people, or visit cemeteries.. "not only do we see watchtower printed material suggesting and supporting writing letters from obituaries such as what jean received, but we even have reports and articles of encouragement for jws to go to cemeteries to look for people as well.".

OneEyedJoe

The faith typically had weaker control over its members than other religions, and pushed members to take the initiative in soliciting conversions.

I don't understand what they're saying here.

It's cool to see an article that's relatively well researched, complete with links to their publications. I just wish that if they're going to point to the shunning FAQ they would've done the same research in the online publications and pointed out the contradiction.

12

A philosophical question

by Coded Logic in

on the internet i keep bumping into people who are extremely insistent that our universe could be a simulation.

while i think it may, in the future, be possible to simulate a high fidelity universe - i don’t think we should confuse the ability to model a universe with the ability to actually build a universe.. .

for example, we can model weather patterns inside a computer.

OneEyedJoe

It doesn't mean it will be able to experience pain, or feel pleasure, or love.

Why not?

Simulating an earthquake inside a supercomputer doesn't cause actual tremors inside the server room. Simulating a blizzard doesn't produce actual snow. And I have yet to hear a good reason why simulating a brain would produce actual consciousness.

But if you simulated that roach brain (or a human brain, or an entire human body) in that earthquake simulation, how would the simulated entity tell what is real (the still of the server room) from what is simulated (the tremors) ? You're still missing the point - the simulation doesn't impact reality outside the simulation, it's just that anything inside the simulation will have no way to tell that the simulation isn't reality.

If a brain is just a computer, I have yet to hear from you a good reason why simulating a brain wouldn't produce consciousness. The only reason (so far as I can see, correct me if I've missed something) a sufficiently detailed simulation of my brain wouldn't be conscious is if you asset the existence of some immaterial component like a soul that is responsible for consciousness. No evidence points to that being the case, though.

12

A philosophical question

by Coded Logic in

on the internet i keep bumping into people who are extremely insistent that our universe could be a simulation.

while i think it may, in the future, be possible to simulate a high fidelity universe - i don’t think we should confuse the ability to model a universe with the ability to actually build a universe.. .

for example, we can model weather patterns inside a computer.

OneEyedJoe

I really feel like everyone who has taken the time to reply (and thank you guys for doing so) has genuinely missed the point which I was making. Why would we assume that simulated roaches would experience anything? Simulating a roach is not the same thing asbeing a roach. I don't see any evidence that simulating something in a computer would ever give the simulation the actual properties of its real life counterpart.

Well just for fun they've actually put the simulated roach brain into a little robot that had artificial antennae and other senses that emulated the roach's body, and sure enough the robot behaves like a real roach did. What's to stop someone from simulating that same sensory input to the roach brain without the robot body? How would the roach know the difference?

The argument isn't that the simulation actually takes on the properties of the simulated, but that to anything in the simulation, the simulation itself is indistinguishable from reality.

20

JWs aren't stupid

by cognisonance in

the title is a bit of click bait.

but here's the alternative title: what stupid beliefs/ideas did you have while an active jw.. i think the majority of jws that don't have obvious mental health issues are not stupid, just un/under-educated.

for example, i now accept evolution as a thing, not a controversy or conjecture.

OneEyedJoe

I think steve hassan has said something about intelligent cult members - they're not necessarily easier to wake up because they can invent more convoluted defenses and rationalizations for the cult beliefs. You can have all the intelligence in the world, but if its goal is to defend the irrational it's not worth anything. Without intellectual honesty, intelligence is useless.

Regarding evolution, my favorite defense (relying on the age old strategy of conflating evolution with abiogenesis) was that scientists hadn't been able to make life in a lab so how much less likely is it to happen randomly? Then, for follow up: Even if scientists could use their intelligence to create life - who made the scientists? Looking back though I was just regurgitating and not really thinking. Luckily I stopped trying to defend the creationist stance at around 14 or 15 and just hoped that it was true in spite of the fact that evolution made so much more sense.

The stupidest belief, though, was my long held stance of rational ignorance. I often thought of investigating the cult, but the indoctrinated belief that all I'd find is angry bitter liars kept me from even taking a moment out to look because it would just be a waste of time. Once I shed the certainty that so-called apostates were 100% wrong and motivated by anger and hatred, it didn't take long to shed the few remaining stupid beliefs I had left at that point.