It's funny how people will claim the bible is completely and utterly scientific, and if you point out something like this you always get "It's just a metaphor!" "It's meant figuratively!" or similar. Special pleading at it's finest.
OneEyedJoe
JoinedPosts by OneEyedJoe
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11
"Neither can salt water produce fresh water." - James 3:12, RNWT
by 88JM ini noticed this verse the other night and thought it looked so obviously ridiculously provably untrue that there must be something more to it.
surely even a bible writer must understand that desalination isn't witchcraft?.
new american standard bible:"nor can salt water produce fresh.".
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56
Who REALLY believed in the idea of living forever on earth??
by stuckinarut2 inseriously.....even when you were 100% in "the truth", did you really believe in living forever?
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OneEyedJoe
Obviously as a child I believed it. As an adult I really wanted to believe it and tried hard to. At that point I mostly wanted to get to paradise to be free from all the JW nonsense.
The parts that made it difficult to believe (or at least difficult to be excited about) was that the current life-supporting capability of the earth and indeed the universe would only be sustainable through constant divine intervention. It just seemed too inelegant for a supreme being to have set it up this way. Then there's the issue with the fact that essentially everything that I enjoy would be in direct conflict with the image of paradise that we're sold. Many things I enjoy pollute (either directly or indirectly) and couldn't be allowed, eating meat would be a thing of the past, etc. I hate menial work, so the 'build and have occupancy, plant and eat the fruitage' thing never seemed like the great scenario that people acted like it was. With the promise that we'd all be happy, I often wondered just how much of a lobotomy god was going to have to give me to achieve that.
To those wondering why you'd do it if you don't really believe - it's all I knew. Plus, it may have been the carrot, but even if you don't like carrots, you still have to worry about the stick.
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Satan was right
by sloppyjoe2 infrom the draw close to jehovah book in chapter 11 paragraph 10 it says this:.
10 to find out why god allows suffering, we need to think back to the time when suffering began.
when satan led adam and eve into disobeying jehovah, an important question was raised.
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OneEyedJoe
Hadn't thought of it that way but you're right. Also, the serpent never lied to eve. He may have used hyperbole, but he didn't lie. -
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What Things Did You Not Talk About as a JW?
by minimus inyou have to lead a secret life as a jw.
you're not supposed to over drink, go to night clubs, enjoy worldly concerts, etc.....sex, though is really taboo.
you could never freely talk about your sex life.
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OneEyedJoe
My ever growing doubts about the organization being what it claimed to be.
Well if you're going to go with the obvious....
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What Things Did You Not Talk About as a JW?
by minimus inyou have to lead a secret life as a jw.
you're not supposed to over drink, go to night clubs, enjoy worldly concerts, etc.....sex, though is really taboo.
you could never freely talk about your sex life.
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OneEyedJoe
For me, the worst thing was/is that I can't talk about science openly. I love learning and I hate that I can't share so many of the things I've learned with anyone without a skeptical look and some question about where Jehovah fits in. -
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Question for atheists and nonbelievers
by pressman ini profess to teach the truth to you all and get you to all to think and believe.
believing in christ through his words and not through evil religious cults, like hoj and jw, can and will save you.
do you all realize that every time you are victorious and receive something of value through your hard work and sweat, it was our holy god who blessed you.
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OneEyedJoe
Eh, I'm not going to read all that when it starts out as arrogant as it did, so I apologize if my answer misses the point or doesn't acknowledge some caveat in the word fort you built.
I'm not inclined to worship god because I see absolutely no evidence for the existence of any god-like entity, and plenty evidence that no such entity exists. Also, if any such entity existed, he's a total asshole and deserves no worship.
In the end, though, you seem to completely misunderstand the issues in play for the typical rational atheist. Sure, there are people who are atheist because it's convenient and they don't care, but there are also many who arrived there after considerable thought and even fought against it. The issue isn't whether or not I want to serve a loving god that would take care of all my needs and provide me with infinite happiness in the future if only I adhere to a few rules. The issue is whether or not such a god exists. Sadly, he doesn't.
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Setback
by EdenOne ini saw this coming since my mother-in-law's funeral .... the congregation's "love-bombing" over my wife had its impact.
i watched her drawing closer and closer to her friends in the congregation.
then she decided she would attend the memorial.
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OneEyedJoe
This is one excellent point. I need to work on overcoming my depressive mood and bitterness and get back on track to my music composing and to make new friends. A bit hard for me, because deep inside, I'm a bit of an introvert, but it's doable.
I'm right there with ya. I'm on the extreme end of the introvert spectrum, and it's difficult for me because my wife has always been my tie to a social life. I've started making some friends at work lately though and I'm realizing that it's much easier than expected and certainly more rewarding than any JW friendship I've had. Keep it up and you'll get there.
Your first impulse would be to be warm, which is fine when the cult does turn cold. But my point is that by being cold it causes her to think twice about taking you for granted, giving her insecurity that you might not always be around and that her actions have consequences.
And it appears to me that those are precisely the things that she needs to think twice about right now.
Hopefully this doesn't come off argumentative, because I don't want to derail this thread from being about supporting Eden, but I can't help but think that being cold will only drive her further in. Making her insecure about the marriage could easily drive her to seek security elsewhere, and she's going to go to the cult for that.
I totally agree, though, that she needs to know that her actions have consequences, but in my experience simply articulating the consequences (i.e. the pain she's inflicting on her loving husband) can be pretty powerful. At the very least it might draw out a conversation which might result in progress, instead of tit-for-tatt passive-aggressive fighting that will only further drive her away. Easier said than done, though, to be sure.
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Setback
by EdenOne ini saw this coming since my mother-in-law's funeral .... the congregation's "love-bombing" over my wife had its impact.
i watched her drawing closer and closer to her friends in the congregation.
then she decided she would attend the memorial.
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OneEyedJoe
I always get annoyed when people come here and apologize for venting. Makes me feel like I'm selfish because the thought doesn't usually cross my mind. It's a big part of why most of us are here, I suspect. So don't do it! haha.
You're in a tough spot to be sure. Don't let it dishearten you too much though. It's still early and time is on your side, no matter how it may seem. If she's going back without you, she's of zero status in the cult and the women will soon lose interest in her because she won't fit in to the couple's things and there's always that elephant in the room when she's around and it's just not the easy perfect situation that JWs prefer. They're not real friends, so if there's something that makes it hard they'll eventually drop off.
She's also mourning the loss of her mother, and the pull from the possibility (however remote) that they're right and they're the only way she gets to see her mother again is powerful. Maybe you can attack it from that angle, and help her remember the happy times with her mother but at the same time help her get closure? The cult is designed to prevent people from getting closure after a loss like that, and that's part of the pull. If you can help her to remove that, you'll get one of their biggest hooks out of her and she'll be happier too.
Make sure that you take care of yourself. Make it a priority. She'll see that you're growing as a person and she's stagnating and she won't want to be left behind. Make new friends for yourself and have them 'round and show her how much happier you are. Say things like "I never realized how great it could be to have friends that value me for me, not because we're just in the same group together." Lead by example and she may be won without a word.
It really sucks feeling so completely helpless and out of control in a situation like this, and it can really mess with your head. Try finding a hobby that you can be in complete control of. You've mentioned music - just force yourself to do it and you'll probably find that it comes back. Or find something else. Point is, when you're more fulfilled and feel like you have some power over one thing, you're going to feel better about everything. Your self worth goes up and you'll be more confident and your wife will see it. The more confident you are in your actions, the more she'll doubt her own when they conflict - that's just human nature.
It's clear that you love your wife greatly. I disagree with another's advice to go cold - I think your love for her is your greatest advantage over the cult. If you're cold her choice is between a superficially warm cult and a cold husband and that's an easy choice. Obviously it's up to you, but that's my take on it. I have to work on that myself because it's really hard to be loving towards someone who's giving you the silent treatment for skipping a meeting.
You've got a better chance at success than most, I think. You and your wife have been through a lot together, and in that crucible a powerful bond was formed. The cult may have a superficial draw right now, but I think you'll win. I wish I had the bond with my wife that I suspect that you have with yours.
We're all pulling for you!
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Setback
by EdenOne ini saw this coming since my mother-in-law's funeral .... the congregation's "love-bombing" over my wife had its impact.
i watched her drawing closer and closer to her friends in the congregation.
then she decided she would attend the memorial.
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OneEyedJoe
the look in her eyes when she looks at me as if I was the very impersonation of evil.
I know that one. And I'm still an active JW that's just missing meetings here and there. It really hurts to see someone that you love, and that you know loves you (on some level at least) look at you that way. I'm really sorry man. I can't imagine the difficulty of getting her out only to see her sucked back in. That's terrible.
If you're not going for a divorce, just remember there's a chance that she'll find her way out again. It's happened before so you know that there's something that can break her free. You'll get another opportunity, and then you can encourage her and help her to do the real work to come to the conclusion that it's a harmful cult.
In the mean time, have you talked to her about how she's treating you? It may be (probably is) unconscious and you might be able to make her realize, at the very least, that it's going to hurt your marriage. I know it's easy for me to just be angry without saying anything, but I recently called my wife on her silent treatment for every missed meeting and the last one I missed she seemed a little less cold towards me than usual. Not leaps and bounds, but it's something. Maybe you can at least get to the point where you have a reasonably happy marriage without the psychological torture.
Also, talking to her about the stuff that injures you might make her see that the cult is causing her to treat the person she loves the most so poorly. That's not the effect of being closer to god.
You're not alone in this by a long shot, and there are so many who've been able to find their way to a much better, healthier, happier situation from where you are now. Maybe your wife won't make it out, maybe your marriage won't last, but you will find your way out if you keep going. Even in the worst case scenario, you'll find yourself in a much better place in the not-too-distant future.
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JW Articles Loaded with Intentional Imbedded Misleading Clauses...
by freemindfade inthis makes me fume while i sit listening to this at the sunday beeting.... "hence, an elder who is tenderly compassionate does not try to control the sheep, making rules or using guilt to pressure them to do more when their circumstances do not permit them to.-w15 2/15 pp.
5-9. now this sentence makes the elders sound like they should not control, use guilt to pressure etc... but then it has a qualifying statement no one seems to hear.
when their circumstances do no permit them to.
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OneEyedJoe
And who is the judge of what someone's circumstances permit? Why, the elders, of course!
This sentence isn't meant to say that the elders should be kind to the congregation. It's meant to tell the r/f that if they feel pressured, it means that they have the circumstances that allow them to do more, but they're too lazy/selfish/sinful/unworthy that they're not doing enough.