haha the days of arguing with her are well and truly in my past. Even so, I suspect that she wouldn't have responded to that - it seems somehow that admitting that I didn't believe in the bible suddenly disqualified me from using the bible's words to make an argument.
OneEyedJoe
JoinedPosts by OneEyedJoe
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51
Without god what is the basis of morality?
by OneEyedJoe ini'm sure most here who've questioned or left behind their belief in god have encountered this question - without god, what basis can there be for morality?
my exwife, when i admitted that i was an atheist, once asked me "if you don't believe in god, what's to stop you from going out and raping and murdering?
" previously, whenever i got this objection, i would tend to turn it around on the other person with a response along the lines of "if fear of god is the only thing that stops you from murdering, that makes me rather nervous to be around you.
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51
Without god what is the basis of morality?
by OneEyedJoe ini'm sure most here who've questioned or left behind their belief in god have encountered this question - without god, what basis can there be for morality?
my exwife, when i admitted that i was an atheist, once asked me "if you don't believe in god, what's to stop you from going out and raping and murdering?
" previously, whenever i got this objection, i would tend to turn it around on the other person with a response along the lines of "if fear of god is the only thing that stops you from murdering, that makes me rather nervous to be around you.
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OneEyedJoe
I'm sure most here who've questioned or left behind their belief in god have encountered this question - without god, what basis can there be for morality? My exwife, when I admitted that I was an atheist, once asked me "If you don't believe in god, what's to stop you from going out and raping and murdering?" Previously, whenever I got this objection, I would tend to turn it around on the other person with a response along the lines of "If fear of god is the only thing that stops you from murdering, that makes me rather nervous to be around you." With my exwife I tried additional lines of reasoning, but I think I went way too deep into moral philosophy for her shutdown cult mind to follow.
I recently encountered another response to this objection in a book I'm reading (Rationality: From AI to Zombies - I highly recommend it) that struck me as beautifully obvious in hindsight (as great ideas often do). Basically it asks what makes you nervous that god's rule against murder might go away? If god is the arbiter of morality, and suddenly decided that murder was not only acceptable but good, or if god disappeared altogether, why would you worry about that possibility? If that happened, then murder would be moral and there would be no reason to worry about people going off and killing indiscriminately because that is a perfectly moral thing to do. The point here is that whatever makes the person worry about the possibility of ending prohibition on murder - that is the true source of their ethics, not god. By the mere fact that they ask the question, they demonstrate that god is not important to morality.
I'm past the point where I find myself in discussion with theists anymore but I thought this an elegant argument that might be helpful for anyone here that finds themselves arguing the point (either with people in the cult or with themselves).
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Screwed up sexually
by purrpurr ini was thinking about how the borg screws up and sexually neuters their flock by telling them when single to "deaden their body" and then boom as soon as there's a ring on the finger to not be denying eachother.. do any of you know of jws who have been screwed up by these teachings?
i know 2, 1 elder came back from honeymoon having a nervous breakdown unable to cope with the cd that sex produced in his head.
and the other called up her parents while on honeymoon, crying and begging for themto come and get her, since she was so shocked that sex hurt.
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OneEyedJoe
The sexual repression of the cult can definitely be quite damaging. As one example, my exwife told me of one of her friends that grew up having rape fantasies because she had such a strong sex drive that she wanted to be able to fulfill without guilt. This led her to make some pretty risky decisions from time to time...luckily her fantasy never came true, something tells me that she would find herself wracked with guilt that she would be unable to talk about.
In my own case, I'm finding that it can be difficult to now transition into the real world, never having any practice dealing with the complexities of sexual relationships and the feelings that they engender. It sure would've been nice to have dealt with this stuff in my teens and early 20s when things are much lower stakes like most people.
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Did your ability to work get affected by waking up to TTATT?
by stuckinarut2 injust curious.. when you started to wake up to the truth about the truth, did the shock and the whole experience distract you from your usual activities such as performing at your place of work?.
did you become so consumed by researching, and the subsequent factual discoveries, that it affected your ability to carry out daily tasks?.
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OneEyedJoe
There were about 3 months there where I got almost no work done. Luckily I'd already really proven myself and was able to bullshit my way through without it getting noticed. Actually got a promotion not too long after that, well before my productivity had recovered completely. I got really lucky.
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25
Why the term "waking up?"
by Sour Grapes inis the term "waking up" the best way to describe when a jdub starts to have doubts?
to me, it is rather that a jdub realizes that what they have believed for years was a pack of lies and then they have to make a conscious decision if they want to continue to believe in lies or stop being a jdub or just go along for the ride.. it just amazes me how many die-hard jdubs there are despite every failed prophecy about the end coming, the borg being a part of the dreaded wild best united nations, the put down of women in the borg, the massive cover-up of the child abuse in the borg, the willingness to let a child die because they need blood, and the eagerness to shun a child who at the age of 10 got dunked to make mommy and daddy happy only to not want to be a jdub later and have the parents treat them like they are dead because 8 overweight, balding, goofy looking, incoherent men in upper state new york say that are the rules for being a christain.. jehovah's witnesses are a very sad cult that attracts people with emotional, psychological, or medical issues, have very large egos, can't make simple decisions, and believe in the tooth fairy..
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OneEyedJoe
When you're asleep and dreaming, you don't know you're dreaming (for most people, most of the time) but when you wake up it becomes immediately obvious what the dream was and you're certain that you're awake. I think this is a pretty solid analogy.
Also, once you leave the cult you get a whole new perspective on the real world - you're no longer looking at it through the filter of the cult and can see everything in full color. Just like dreams (at least for me) often have diluted/washed out/greyscale color to them and hazy details, then you wake up and the world snaps into full vivid detail.
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Corporate Virtue Signalling At Your Expense
by Simon inthe latest trend seems to be that you can't go to any store without being asked for money.. no, not the money for the things you went in there to purchase, extra money for the store to donate to charity.. yes, that's right, the big-name stores, often making $millions in profits, ask you to give them extra money so that they can give it to charity and get some publicity about how awesome they are so that they'll look good to their customers, like, erm, you.. it seems to have ramped up more in the last year or so and frankly, it pisses me off.
if i want to donate to some cause, i'll give the money straight to them.
i hate that it puts people on the spot to guilt them into donating and imagine some people on a tight budget may give even when they can't really afford it.. often you don't know what the charities really are (it's vague like "to help children") or how the money will be spent or even how much will go on the people it's supposedly to help (charity is a multi $billion industry, some just exist to pay themselves).. so what to do?
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OneEyedJoe
This really doesn't bother me at all. I've never gotten anything that resembled negative judgement for opting not to donate to a charity, and I'm secure enough in myself that I don't feel the slightest tinge of guilt for neglecting to donate money in the checkout line. Given what I know about human nature, though, it strikes me as probably a pretty good thing in a lot of ways - I suspect that a lot of people approach charitable giving as if you're expected to give a large sum of money or else it feels like it doesn't make a difference and then where do you start? How do you select a charity? Many will think "it's all too much trouble and I can't spare enough money to make a difference, so I might as well not bother." If given the choice of giving a few dollars at the grocery store, though, it takes all that out - they know that this is offered to every customer so it makes them feel that they may be able to be a part of a larger effort that does make a difference. The charity is already selected, for better or for worse, but it takes that part of the effort out of it.
Could it be done better? Absolutely. I suspect the stores are getting something of a tax break by doing this, so if they'd really like to show some altruism, they should match the donations received (or even just match 30 cents on the dollar) - this would likely motivate even more giving and they'd not be in it for a profit motive. Something tells me, though I've done no research on this, that the charities selected probably aren't the best either. But hopefully they're vetted at least a little, as the companies would probably not want a PR disaster of being revealed to support a corrupt charity. Also, I definitely think that the implementations of this where it just shows up on the keypad (vs being asked by the cashier) are somewhat nicer as they remove most of the feeling of being publicly shamed if you opt not to donate.
Similar to how people will contribute significantly more to their retirement fund if their employer requires them to opt-out of savings vs opting-in. Very small changes in how convenient something is can make a significant impact. In effect the grocery store is providing a service for those that would like it, making it easier to give and to feel that you're a part of something worthwhile. If you don't want to donate, then don't. I've never seen someone become the victim of mob violence for failure to donate money at the grocery store. I certainly don't think it's appropriate to make someone who's probably earning minimum wage working a tedious job feel uncomfortable by responding rudely because you don't like the policy of someone 6 levels up in the corporate hierarchy.
What I would suggest is if you have a problem with the policy, instead of making the poor cashier suffer for something that's not their fault, write a letter expressing your objection to the public relations office of the company. Boycott the company and order your groceries on amazon or similar if you have to. Go support a local farmer's market. Unless you live in a tiny city with one grocery store, you likely have options.
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18
People are nice and life is awesome.
by OneEyedJoe ini got invited as a +1 to someone's house yesterday to watch the fireworks.
i'd never met the hosts, and it seemed that most of the people in the group only knew one or two other people there.
yet i felt more genuine friendship from everyone there than i ever felt at any jw gathering.
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OneEyedJoe
Idk it might be on you for still having a blackberry. It was probably stolen by Indiana Jones, because it belongs in a museum.
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18
People are nice and life is awesome.
by OneEyedJoe ini got invited as a +1 to someone's house yesterday to watch the fireworks.
i'd never met the hosts, and it seemed that most of the people in the group only knew one or two other people there.
yet i felt more genuine friendship from everyone there than i ever felt at any jw gathering.
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OneEyedJoe
Yeah, the more I think about it the more examples I can come up with. People that I meet walking the dog, or while sitting in a bar. The feeling really is one of immediate friendship most of the time with most people. I'm not sure how much that's skewed by my past cult experience and never really having a friendship based on true appreciation for another person's unique attributes, or if normal people feel this way too but regardless it's such amazingly strong evidence of how toxic the JW world is and how truly good most people are.
We can get bogged down on this forum getting sucked in to the toxic black cloud of the cult, going over all the lies, deception, and abuse that comes out of it. That's certainly important, all that needs to be exposed, but I started this wanting to get a little more positivity in here, especially for those that might still be struggling. I'm so pleased that so many have had such a similar experience of what it's like to be 'in the world.' Leaving the cult really is worth the costs, a hundred times over.
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People are nice and life is awesome.
by OneEyedJoe ini got invited as a +1 to someone's house yesterday to watch the fireworks.
i'd never met the hosts, and it seemed that most of the people in the group only knew one or two other people there.
yet i felt more genuine friendship from everyone there than i ever felt at any jw gathering.
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OneEyedJoe
I got invited as a +1 to someone's house yesterday to watch the fireworks. I'd never met the hosts, and it seemed that most of the people in the group only knew one or two other people there. Yet I felt more genuine friendship from everyone there than I ever felt at any JW gathering. It's not the first time I've experienced something like this since leaving the cult and the true extent to which we were lied to in the cult really struck me. We were told that we could go anywhere and if we found JWs we'd be among friends and that this was something unique to JWs - the rest of the world was out to get us and would take advantage. But it seems, now, that quite the opposite is true. I'm not an especially outgoing person, but literally every single time I've engaged in conversation with a stranger, I've received more genuine interest and friendliness than I ever remember feeling in the cult, even with very close friends. Adding to that the fact that, sure, if you met another JW you could be reasonably sure they'd be nice people (this, I'm learning, is just a rule of people in general - being a JW is orthogonal to friendliness at best, but I now think JWs tend to be at least slightly less friendly than average) but with another JW (even your best friend) you had to be constantly on guard to make sure the cult mask didn't slip off lest their friendliness evaporate in an instant.
So for those out there that are currently struggling with leaving, or those lurkers that are having doubts or anxieties about "where else will I go" - take note. It's been just shy of 2 years since I was able to really fully separate myself from the cult and I'm discovering just how great life can be when you're allowed to be yourself. You can do it, and it's completely worth it. And you're not alone - both in the sense that there are many others like you dealing with the same challenges, but also there's a world full of really friendly, welcoming people that are genuinely interested in what makes you who you are instead of the false interest you get from JWs that only want to hear you follow the approved script. People are nice and life is awesome. Go live!
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Everything Happens For A Reason
by Charles Gillette indoes everything happen for a reason?
i hear this from so many people without any explanation as how this is so.
what do you think about this belief?
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OneEyedJoe
Everything happens for a reason. Physics is the study of those reasons.