That interpretation would be more viable without the definition of leaders given in 13:7 Eden. One has to ignore 13:7, and therefore 2:3 as well, to reach that reading of 13:17. It doesn't stack up as the local bishop, let alone deacon, unless they too are claiming apostolic authority.
Mephis
JoinedPosts by Mephis
-
25
"Obey" or "Be persuaded" at Hebrews 13.17
by Wonderment invarious posters have apparently concluded that the wt society is wrong by quoting hebrews 13.17 as a reason for christians to submit to, and be "obedient" to those taking the lead among them.
they have pointed out that the greek word for obedience is "hypakouo" or some other, not "pei'tho" which is the one that appears in the beginning of verse 17 at hebrews ch.
their motive for their objections may be one of rancor brought about by the extreme authoritative measures the society have imposed on the brotherhood.
-
-
-
44
Decrease of numbers in Jehovah's Witnesses via Deaths, DFings, or Turning Inactive
by flipper inso i'm sure a good number of us saw the chart that i believe the poster splash put on another thread of figures since 1990 regarding how many baptized and % of increase each year .
i started analyzing it ( and i know some referred to it briefly on the other thread ) and guessing of reasons the % of increase didn't match the number of newly baptized.
and of course common sense tells us that either jw's leave the cult each year through death, fading into inactivity, or getting dfed.
-
-
Mephis
Something which stands out to me, using the average percentage increase in publishers is the different phases.
The post-75 exodus with falling numbers. Reversed with the Reagan era nuclear holocaust fears and build-up to 86 and maintained as communism collapsed. Then the collapse at turn of the millenium which is partially masked by the 2002 changes to reporting 15 minutes if elderly/sick and then the financial crisis.
Is this the centennial step down then? The 100 years after 1914? Does it usher in a drop to marginal (ie 1% and less) percentage gains, or a decline? If not a decline, then the next step down will certainly be full flatline and decline. 1914 and its generation is the millstone for them. Pinning prophesy to events gives them the boost in numbers, but the comedown for being wrong hammers them worse each time.
Demographics are hammering them. They have to have 3 kids to keep 1 in - 6 just to maintain numbers across a (non-overlapping) generation. The average age is rocketing up. Even now they're preaching to women unable to find a partner the virtues of staying single past the age of being able to have children rather than encouraging marrying outside of the organisation. Whole congregations can go a year preaching with the only baptism being a born-in. Such a waste of so many lives. Kind of sad watching people still clinging to it as it slowly implodes. And that includes my family.
-
25
"Obey" or "Be persuaded" at Hebrews 13.17
by Wonderment invarious posters have apparently concluded that the wt society is wrong by quoting hebrews 13.17 as a reason for christians to submit to, and be "obedient" to those taking the lead among them.
they have pointed out that the greek word for obedience is "hypakouo" or some other, not "pei'tho" which is the one that appears in the beginning of verse 17 at hebrews ch.
their motive for their objections may be one of rancor brought about by the extreme authoritative measures the society have imposed on the brotherhood.
-
-
Mephis
Half banana,
it depends what we mean by 'traditional hierarchical ordering'. We may be at cross purposes here? I'm not so much looking at who handles the money and the title they get, but more at who gets to say 'jump' with interpretation of doctrine, if that makes sense?
There's several instances of gnostics being condemned from the 'orthodoxy' for not respecting hierarchy, even that of the traditional apostolic authority. They certainly seem to be an interesting bunch in terms of authority. The main thrust of several arguments against them is that they claim apostolic authority via personal revelation (which is what Paul did) which they then used to justify doctrinal changes. In contrast to that, 'orthodox' christianity became much more rigid, much more authoritarian, in its approach to doctrine with the development of ideas such as a rigid canon of 'holy scripture' and the idea of apostolic succession (Peter the first pope etc.).
eg Tertullian, Against Heretics
"Differences of theology are of no
concern to them as long as they are all agreed in attacking
the truth. They are all puffed up, they all promise knowledge.
Their catechumens are perfect before they are fully instructed.
As for the women of the heretics, how forward they are! They
have the impudence to teach, to argue, to perform exorcisms,
to promise cures, perhaps even to baptize. Their ordinations
are hasty, irresponsible and unstable. Sometimes they appoint
novices, Sometimes men tied to secular office, sometimes
renegades from us, hoping to bind them by ambition as they
cannot bind them by the truth. Nowhere can you get quicker
promotion than in the camp of the rebels, where your mere
presence is a merit. So one man is bishop today, another
tomorrow. The deacon of today is tomorrow's reader, the
priest of today is tomorrow a layman. For they impose priestly
functions even upon laymen." -
25
"Obey" or "Be persuaded" at Hebrews 13.17
by Wonderment invarious posters have apparently concluded that the wt society is wrong by quoting hebrews 13.17 as a reason for christians to submit to, and be "obedient" to those taking the lead among them.
they have pointed out that the greek word for obedience is "hypakouo" or some other, not "pei'tho" which is the one that appears in the beginning of verse 17 at hebrews ch.
their motive for their objections may be one of rancor brought about by the extreme authoritative measures the society have imposed on the brotherhood.
-
-
Mephis
I think the question comes down to 'which Christians?' There was likely a very mundane reason for why Paul needed to have had a vision of Christ in order to claim a position of authority to anyone. And the hierarchy was present in 'orthodox' christianity very early. But other branches (eg Gnostics) don't seem to have followed that pattern - there's a good case to be made that the early church hierarchy was a direct response to the gnostic approach.
I've often wondered who is meant by 'leaders' here. If one takes a reading of this that it's something composed for Jewish Christians prior to 70 CE, then their leaders are the men in Jerusalem who claim to have authority from Christ himself. The phrase of vs. 17 is the same as in vs. 7. The leaders are those who gave the message to the believers. And if one accepts that Paul wrote this, those would be the very same men who sent messengers out to chase him for not doing what he's telling others to do here. If one, as many do now, view this as not being written by Paul then one gets the same point but a reinforcing of that direct apostolic authority which Paul later bought into with his vision. So I suppose really I'd personally wonder less about the phrasing of what's meant to be done and more about for whom it's done. The later interpretation placed upon this is obvious enough. But does that actually fit the context here? 1 Corinthians 11:16 (ignoring later addition possibility) suggests that people would cite other traditions of christianity when told to do something - even if it were an apostle doing the telling!
-
49
Who would you vote for Today?
by James Mixon ind. trump or h. clinton and why.. i would vote for gun slinging trump..
-
-
Mephis
There's a time when the clown car stops being funny. Would think it pulling up outside the White House would be one of those. Until then, the whole Trump thing is just hugely amusing to me. People genuinely take him seriously? He says the first thing which comes into his head, which is usually something about how awesome he is and how terrible everyone else is. And then riffs on that until people wander away bored. One day it'll emerge that he has lived his life as a very clever parody of the American Dream in the media age. And at that moment, and not before, I will love him down to the last hair of his toupee. The alternative is that he really is what even a cursory glance of his record and listen to his speeches suggest. Which in itself is comedy I suppose.
Meh Clinton. But she's a very, very intelligent woman. Calculating and hard. Not my cup of tea, but she's very impressive.
-
19
Can a baptism be annulled?
by angel.face ini joined this site about 4 years ago and life was very different to say the least.
i was a jw and started the process of 'waking up' after experiencing life threatening blood loss due to complications of a pregnancy.
i was married with two kids (husband was an ms) and was a stay-at-home mom.
-
-
Mephis
According to the leaked guidance for Bethels on how to write letters to answer questions... yes, they can be but very specific circumstances for the WBTS to accept the baptism was invalid.
p.12/13, Correspondence Guidelines.
"A person might commit a wrong after his baptism that could result in his being disfellowshipped or his being considered disassociated. Now, for the first time, he claims that his baptism was invalid because he did not understand at the time of baptism what was involved in getting baptized. In that case, we would take him for what he had professed to be up until that time, a dedicated and baptized Christian. The congregation would deal with him accordingly. (w60 3/1 159-60) However, if it is discovered that the very situation now giving rise to action by the congregation existed at the time of his baptism (such as using tobacco) and he nevertheless got baptized, then his baptism is not valid and he should be dealt with as an unbaptized wrongdoer.—Acts 19:1-5."
-
37
Why does Antoine Leiris' powerful tribute to his wife, killed by ISIS in the Paris attacks, bother me so much?
by nicolaou inhere is the translation of monsieur leiris' words;.
friday night, you took an exceptional life - the love of my life, the mother of my son - but you will not have my hatred.
i don't know who you are and i don't want to know, you are dead souls.
-
-
Mephis
Reminded of Marcus Aurelius' words. "The best revenge is to be unlike he who performed the injury." -
12
Magazine money
by pepperheart infrom next year the borg will only be publishing the two magazines saving about $2 million dollars a month.
what do you think they will be spending the money on
-
-
Mephis
I kind of want it to be a secret base in a hollowed out volcano. Wine, women and song. That would mean there's some hope there's something human going on inside the heads of the GB. But it just seems the money will go towards trying to maintain what they've decided they can still afford to do. Any expansion now seems likely to be in developing their tv channel. If the issue is one where what's going out has been much greater than what they've been taking in, any savings are already going to be swallowed up in what doesn't get cut. -
12
Jehovah's Witnesses Elders try to talk to the Governing Body about Ray Franz
by Brokeback Watchtower inthe governing body in denial:.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwigzn6oomc.
-
-
Mephis
Listened to this in full for the first time this morning. Some of the things I grew up around are directly related to it. Sad. And how many of us have been down similar paths, especially before the internet?
The part about the apostate hunts, yeah, remember those even as a wee nipper. The congregation I grew up in had a similar attitude to what they describe in Ireland, where asking a question and using one's own conscience over-rode what was written in the WT. And it wasn't apostasy. It was your own conscience and everyone was entitled to find the right line for themselves, within the obvious 'thou shalts' specifically said in the bible. Very different religion to that which seems to have been happening in Brooklyn even back then.
-
40
WTS checklist for Elders to destroy evidence?
by DarioKehl inhttps://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/3t1yp7/marc_and_cora_posted_on_utube/.
hot off the presses from exjw reddit earlier today.
massive leak in uk.. if true, this is big (and very, very disturbing)..
-
-
Mephis
There's no change in policy DarioKehl. It's just restating what is current policy. It seems curious more in its timing and how it specifies to check personal files held by elders. I believe one of the cases in Australia did have some personal files still in existence, and it showed the elders to have lied about what they knew and when. Not that destroying them makes things any better either, but then successful prosecution of criminals and the protection of the community from them isn't something the WBTS ever seems concerned about.
There have been a couple of cases in Britain too, recently, where the destruction of notes and potential evidence has been commented upon by the prosecution. Not to mention cases where they've been obstructive and generally unhelpful. But nothing new here. A restatement of fact and what already happens, and has done for years as far as I know here in Britain. In terms of current investigations, production orders have already been made by the Charity Commission. Whether this is doublechecking that everything incriminating has been torched before the British public inquiry... reasonable question I think.