Posts by Mephis

27

The Exodus confirmed..

by Crazyguy in

for those of you that don't research this stuff i will give a little back story.

we all know about the moses exodus, but history and archeology didn't seem to confirm this event.

the only exodus out of egypt ever recorded was that of a group of asiatic tribes that had taken over egypt for a bit over 100 years called the hyksos and the followers of the pharaoh akhenaten who perpetuated a monotheistic idea of worshiping only one deity the aten.

Mephis

We know the Hyksos worshipped Ba'al Zephon (who they conflated with Seth) from the big temple to Seth at Avaris and various finds relating to this form of Seth being 'Lord of Avaris'. The temple to Seth was actually maintained by the Egyptians even after they'd taken Avaris from the Hyksos.

If Avaris is meant by the Exodus writer, then you'd kind of wonder why he forgot to mention that it was a major centre for trade in Egypt. That was it's defining feature - it's position on the Nile allowing for Mediterranean sea trade (lots of Minoan influences in buildings there, pottery from Cyprus) and access to the land trade routes into Canaan and beyond. There's some debate still whether old Avaris became the main military harbour for the later city of Ramesses. But regardless, there is the slight problem that Avaris was already a trade hub 200 years before the Hyksos 'invasion'... (settlement dating to Amenemhat II at least, who is recorded as heading into Syria and capturing Aamu (Asiatics - same term used for Hyksos) as slaves).

I can buy the idea of a much later origin myth being built upon vague memories of historical events, even to the extent of the chronology becoming very confused.

9

The Ages Of The Biblical Patriarchs

by JW_Rogue in

so i've been reading the imitate their faith book (because my wife wants to) and keep coming upon these ridiculous ages for the bible patriarchs.

now i know wt takes everything literally but there has got to be some explanation that makes more sense.

why would the bible writers create these obviously false ages?

Mephis

Everything was bigger, better, stronger, taller, healthier etc etc in the mythic past. The Hindus have one where humans lived to be 100,000 so the Biblical patriarchs were slacking.

37

Did I imagine a brief thaw in the Watchtower injunction against going to university?

by slimboyfat in

okay i was talking to an elder and he said me going to university was a bad idea and i should have listened to the society and not gone.

but i said that when i went to university the watchtower was saying it might not be a bad idea to go to, as long as you do it for the "right reasons", don't associate with worldly people, and keep clear of "damaging ideas".

but basically they said it was okay, in this "changing world" and job market to go to university.

Mephis

Barbara Anderson wrote an interesting article about the reasons behind the thaw: http://www.freeminds.org/doctrine/education_anderson.htm

Relevant quote:

"One member of the Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses, Lloyd Barry, now deceased, attended university in his youth in New Zealand. In the early 1990s, he expressed himself privately to some members of the Writing Department at the headquarters of Jehovah’s Witnesses’ organization in Brooklyn, New York, about a needed change of attitude towards supplementary education, but not because he had attended university. Lloyd Barry was empathetic towards the low-paying job plight of Witnesses as expressed in personal letters received at headquarters, and from Jehovah’s Witnesses branch office communiqués from around the world. He said that in certain European countries jobs were not available to Witnesses, even in fast food restaurants, if they could not produce a resume which showed supplemental education after high school. Due to difficult economic changes in a world that Witnesses could not escape from, Lloyd Barry, along with the rest of the Governing Body, authorized the November 1, 1992 Watchtower article that changed the view of Witnesses towards higher education.

Interestingly, another Governing Body member, Dan Sydlik, shared with a friend that the Watchtower Society was finding itself in a difficult position because this mammoth publishing company needed skilled technical people but couldn't find them in the Witness community. So it was decided to allow a somewhat more liberal attitude towards a college education, knowing that some percentage of students with the necessary technical skills would eventually volunteer to become part of the staff at headquarters"

I used it in the mid-90s to move away to university and then drop the borg. It was still very much frowned upon in comparison to the joys of being a window cleaning pioneer. Still had to justify post-16 education by choosing some courses which fitted the 'serving where the need was greater/I really want to work in Bethel as a translator' figleaf of an excuse one could use.

My apologies to those younger than me who found the door closed because I, like so many others it would seem, used it to get the hell out of dodge. >_>

44

New Generation Understanding

by momzcrazy in

hello everyone, i am new here and newly freed from the snare of wtbs.

my sister, also newly freed, said our mom told her at the annual meeting there was a new "understanding" on the generation confusion.

it is now the annointed that will not pass away.. has anyone else heard this?

Mephis

The more they explain it the more the 'wtf?!' is rattled. Hope they keep thinking it's an issue with not saying it often enough or not explaining it clearly enough. The more they break it down, the more ridiculous it becomes. There's no reference to age in the imaginary second group they've invented guys, so don't put your feet up til 2040. But you bet your bottom dollar they'll be saying it could last til 2040 right up until New Year's Eve 2039.

25

"Obey" or "Be persuaded" at Hebrews 13.17

by Wonderment in

various posters have apparently concluded that the wt society is wrong by quoting hebrews 13.17 as a reason for christians to submit to, and be "obedient" to those taking the lead among them.

they have pointed out that the greek word for obedience is "hypakouo" or some other, not "pei'tho" which is the one that appears in the beginning of verse 17 at hebrews ch.

their motive for their objections may be one of rancor brought about by the extreme authoritative measures the society have imposed on the brotherhood.

Mephis

That interpretation would be more viable without the definition of leaders given in 13:7 Eden. One has to ignore 13:7, and therefore 2:3 as well, to reach that reading of 13:17. It doesn't stack up as the local bishop, let alone deacon, unless they too are claiming apostolic authority.

44

Decrease of numbers in Jehovah's Witnesses via Deaths, DFings, or Turning Inactive

by flipper in

jw
friends

so i'm sure a good number of us saw the chart that i believe the poster splash put on another thread of figures since 1990 regarding how many baptized and % of increase each year .

i started analyzing it ( and i know some referred to it briefly on the other thread ) and guessing of reasons the % of increase didn't match the number of newly baptized.

and of course common sense tells us that either jw's leave the cult each year through death, fading into inactivity, or getting dfed.

Mephis

Something which stands out to me, using the average percentage increase in publishers is the different phases.

The post-75 exodus with falling numbers. Reversed with the Reagan era nuclear holocaust fears and build-up to 86 and maintained as communism collapsed. Then the collapse at turn of the millenium which is partially masked by the 2002 changes to reporting 15 minutes if elderly/sick and then the financial crisis.

Is this the centennial step down then? The 100 years after 1914? Does it usher in a drop to marginal (ie 1% and less) percentage gains, or a decline? If not a decline, then the next step down will certainly be full flatline and decline. 1914 and its generation is the millstone for them. Pinning prophesy to events gives them the boost in numbers, but the comedown for being wrong hammers them worse each time.

Demographics are hammering them. They have to have 3 kids to keep 1 in - 6 just to maintain numbers across a (non-overlapping) generation. The average age is rocketing up. Even now they're preaching to women unable to find a partner the virtues of staying single past the age of being able to have children rather than encouraging marrying outside of the organisation. Whole congregations can go a year preaching with the only baptism being a born-in. Such a waste of so many lives. Kind of sad watching people still clinging to it as it slowly implodes. And that includes my family.

25

"Obey" or "Be persuaded" at Hebrews 13.17

by Wonderment in

various posters have apparently concluded that the wt society is wrong by quoting hebrews 13.17 as a reason for christians to submit to, and be "obedient" to those taking the lead among them.

they have pointed out that the greek word for obedience is "hypakouo" or some other, not "pei'tho" which is the one that appears in the beginning of verse 17 at hebrews ch.

their motive for their objections may be one of rancor brought about by the extreme authoritative measures the society have imposed on the brotherhood.

Mephis

Half banana,

it depends what we mean by 'traditional hierarchical ordering'. We may be at cross purposes here? I'm not so much looking at who handles the money and the title they get, but more at who gets to say 'jump' with interpretation of doctrine, if that makes sense?

There's several instances of gnostics being condemned from the 'orthodoxy' for not respecting hierarchy, even that of the traditional apostolic authority. They certainly seem to be an interesting bunch in terms of authority. The main thrust of several arguments against them is that they claim apostolic authority via personal revelation (which is what Paul did) which they then used to justify doctrinal changes. In contrast to that, 'orthodox' christianity became much more rigid, much more authoritarian, in its approach to doctrine with the development of ideas such as a rigid canon of 'holy scripture' and the idea of apostolic succession (Peter the first pope etc.).

eg Tertullian, Against Heretics

"Differences of theology are of no

concern to them as long as they are all agreed in attacking

the truth. They are all puffed up, they all promise knowledge.
Their catechumens are perfect before they are fully instructed.
As for the women of the heretics, how forward they are! They
have the impudence to teach, to argue, to perform exorcisms,
to promise cures, perhaps even to baptize. Their ordinations
are hasty, irresponsible and unstable. Sometimes they appoint
novices, Sometimes men tied to secular office, sometimes
renegades from us, hoping to bind them by ambition as they
cannot bind them by the truth. Nowhere can you get quicker
promotion than in the camp of the rebels, where your mere
presence is a merit. So one man is bishop today, another
tomorrow. The deacon of today is tomorrow's reader, the
priest of today is tomorrow a layman. For they impose priestly
functions even upon laymen."

25

"Obey" or "Be persuaded" at Hebrews 13.17

by Wonderment in

various posters have apparently concluded that the wt society is wrong by quoting hebrews 13.17 as a reason for christians to submit to, and be "obedient" to those taking the lead among them.

they have pointed out that the greek word for obedience is "hypakouo" or some other, not "pei'tho" which is the one that appears in the beginning of verse 17 at hebrews ch.

their motive for their objections may be one of rancor brought about by the extreme authoritative measures the society have imposed on the brotherhood.

Mephis

I think the question comes down to 'which Christians?' There was likely a very mundane reason for why Paul needed to have had a vision of Christ in order to claim a position of authority to anyone. And the hierarchy was present in 'orthodox' christianity very early. But other branches (eg Gnostics) don't seem to have followed that pattern - there's a good case to be made that the early church hierarchy was a direct response to the gnostic approach.

I've often wondered who is meant by 'leaders' here. If one takes a reading of this that it's something composed for Jewish Christians prior to 70 CE, then their leaders are the men in Jerusalem who claim to have authority from Christ himself. The phrase of vs. 17 is the same as in vs. 7. The leaders are those who gave the message to the believers. And if one accepts that Paul wrote this, those would be the very same men who sent messengers out to chase him for not doing what he's telling others to do here. If one, as many do now, view this as not being written by Paul then one gets the same point but a reinforcing of that direct apostolic authority which Paul later bought into with his vision. So I suppose really I'd personally wonder less about the phrasing of what's meant to be done and more about for whom it's done. The later interpretation placed upon this is obvious enough. But does that actually fit the context here? 1 Corinthians 11:16 (ignoring later addition possibility) suggests that people would cite other traditions of christianity when told to do something - even if it were an apostle doing the telling!

49

Who would you vote for Today?

by James Mixon in

jw
friends

d. trump or h. clinton and why.. i would vote for gun slinging trump..

Mephis

There's a time when the clown car stops being funny. Would think it pulling up outside the White House would be one of those. Until then, the whole Trump thing is just hugely amusing to me. People genuinely take him seriously? He says the first thing which comes into his head, which is usually something about how awesome he is and how terrible everyone else is. And then riffs on that until people wander away bored. One day it'll emerge that he has lived his life as a very clever parody of the American Dream in the media age. And at that moment, and not before, I will love him down to the last hair of his toupee. The alternative is that he really is what even a cursory glance of his record and listen to his speeches suggest. Which in itself is comedy I suppose.

Meh Clinton. But she's a very, very intelligent woman. Calculating and hard. Not my cup of tea, but she's very impressive.

19

Can a baptism be annulled?

by angel.face in

i joined this site about 4 years ago and life was very different to say the least.

i was a jw and started the process of 'waking up' after experiencing life threatening blood loss due to complications of a pregnancy.

i was married with two kids (husband was an ms) and was a stay-at-home mom.

Mephis

According to the leaked guidance for Bethels on how to write letters to answer questions... yes, they can be but very specific circumstances for the WBTS to accept the baptism was invalid.

p.12/13, Correspondence Guidelines.

"A person might commit a wrong after his baptism that could result in his being disfellowshipped or his being considered disassociated. Now, for the first time, he claims that his baptism was invalid because he did not understand at the time of baptism what was involved in getting baptized. In that case, we would take him for what he had professed to be up until that time, a dedicated and baptized Christian. The congregation would deal with him accordingly. (w60 3/1 159-60) However, if it is discovered that the very situation now giving rise to action by the congregation existed at the time of his baptism (such as using tobacco) and he nevertheless got baptized, then his baptism is not valid and he should be dealt with as an unbaptized wrongdoer.—Acts 19:1-5."