Posts by Mephis

47

Did Jesus actually start a church to himself?

by TTWSYF in

with some 30,000 different christian denominations, how would one know which one was for real?

some folks think jesus did start a church, others think no.

Mephis

Mephis- So in your mind, Jesus din't start a church to himself because in Mathew, he says he WILL build his church is in future tense, but Mathew is written 50 years later, iS THAT RIGHT?
Just want to be sure that I understand your position

I'm pointing out that two uses of the term ekklesia in Matthew are not evidence for Jesus founding a church in his lifetime for that reason, yes. I've highlighted that even after Jesus is meant to have died and visited the apostles again, Acts 2 has the believers gathered together to celebrate a Jewish festival. There is no shared creed in Christianity for centuries. Early christianity is small communities of believers who have their own prophets and elect their own leaders and spend centuries arguing over who Jesus was, what he did, what it means etc etc. It's not just one reason, it's a whole host of them all pointing to the same thing.

47

Did Jesus actually start a church to himself?

by TTWSYF in

with some 30,000 different christian denominations, how would one know which one was for real?

some folks think jesus did start a church, others think no.

Mephis

And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.

Again, that is the future tense. Even according to Matthew, written half a century later, the 'church' (ekklesia) doesn't exist when he says that to Peter. It is not "and on this rock I am building my church" or "on this rock I have built my church". And that's assuming Matthew has it right. There's no mention of it in any of the other gospels. That's pretty incredible an oversight - you'd think that would have been a major event in Jesus' ministry. Paul doesn't mention that Peter's the rock of the church. He waits three years to even visit Peter after his conversion via a personal divine revelation.

I'm not sure on your question there? Which church survived? The Eastern Orthodox? The Roman Catholic? The Coptic? Arianism? Nestorianism? Gnosticism?

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@Secret Slave Class - the Essenes and the Dead Sea Scrolls?

47

Did Jesus actually start a church to himself?

by TTWSYF in

with some 30,000 different christian denominations, how would one know which one was for real?

some folks think jesus did start a church, others think no.

Mephis

Except in the bible, and in the writings of the church fathers which were written after HIS church was orally established.

That's not replying to the point you quoted? There are precisely two claimed references by Jesus to ekklesia in one gospel written some half a century after he's meant to have died. Both references are to future events ("if your brother sins" and "I will build"). If there was one church, why is there no evidence for it in doctrine? Why the debate over Jews and Gentiles if Jesus has already established a church? Later on, sure, a church develops and ultimately you get a formal creed established. But it takes centuries and there's debate every step of the way there - debate on who Jesus was, on who God was, who one should listen to when teachings are changed, who one shouldn't listen to, even over the basics of what Jesus was meant to have said. If you're looking for the one true version of Christianity in that, good luck! Try Judaism!

4

WT beliefs keep somebody I know from suicide, any suggestions?

by EndofMysteries in

the religion is like being on a dangerous drug or major abuser of alcohol in which suddenly stopping it will kill them even though remaining on it is also killing them.

someone i know has poor health, on welfare and very poor, and unable to turn around and change their life.

they are very depressed and been on care and had several close calls and suicidal thoughts.

Mephis

Sounds like they really could use a good therapist to begin to unpick things first, and of course any medication for whatever diagnosis they have. Depending on where you are, that may not be easy financially if they're struggling for money. Worth having a look to see what is available (and within means) if they're willing to engage with some professional help? From what you say, they are already on the radar of local mental health services?

The damage may not be something which can be undone, but there are usually ways to help manage things better. Hope there is something available they can access to begin that process.

47

Did Jesus actually start a church to himself?

by TTWSYF in

with some 30,000 different christian denominations, how would one know which one was for real?

some folks think jesus did start a church, others think no.

Mephis

So Jesus is a literary character who DIDN"T start a church to himself, but 2000 years later a church in his honor has stood the test of time and claims it can trace it's existence back to the apostles. Plenty of countries and cultures tried to quell, but couldn't....interesting.

There's no evidence even from our earliest writings about him which suggests he established a church in his own lifetime. The first reference to an organised event for believers is after his death, and that's in celebration of a Jewish festival (Pentecost = Shavuot). Even Acts 1 has the apostles asking him whether now's the time he's going to do the Jewish Messiah thing rather than establish a church. It's all about the oral tradition and a personal salvation initially, whilst expecting his imminent re-return to do the smiting, not a church. What later happened is what later happened, but right from its beginnings there is huge variations in beliefs. Even who/what Jesus was is up for debate for centuries. You'd think that would be one of the first things to be resolved by any organised church. There's a vague common theme to it all, but there's lots of riffing on that.
How could it be otherwise when someone could stand up and claim a divine revelation which changes things? Or a new supposed saying from Jesus is passed around some communities but not others? One does get the impression that one could always corral four christians in a room and end up getting five different versions of what Christianity is meant to be.
One of my favorite quotes on the historicity/mythicist debate is "if there were a historical Jesus, there certainly isn't now". Seems to be where I'm at with things. A kernel of truth in there, but what is built upon that is something most different to what it was when it began,

152

If YOU had to make the decision, would you respect a JW relatives wish to refuse a blood transfusion?

by nicolaou in

a few years after i quit the meetings my mum needed her medical directive signed and witnessed and she asked if i'd do it.

i was surprised to say the least!.

i think she was just angling to include me and maybe find some lever to get me involved again.

Mephis

They're meant to be christians, so I'm sure they'd forgive me for paying more attention to a doctor than supposed commands from a god I don't believe exists. The reversal of that is a bit more problematic as, if I'm dead, I'm hardly going to be in a position to do much of anything even if their beliefs prove correct.

47

Did Jesus actually start a church to himself?

by TTWSYF in

with some 30,000 different christian denominations, how would one know which one was for real?

some folks think jesus did start a church, others think no.

Mephis

Personal opinion on the Peter/church thing, I'd suggest that Matthew is a gospel written for a Greek speaking Jewish community. It seems like an appeal to a more Jewish form of Christianity, and, if it was written late in the first century, then one has the obvious resistance in some branches of Christianity towards moving away from that. So an appeal to Peter as the authority on church matters may have been more in line with a unifying (on this issue) branch of christianity which still retained essential elements of Judaism. eg. see The Diadache of a little later for how Christian beliefs were superimposed on Jewish rites in a way to allow for Gentiles.

On the Mithras ideas, I'll defer to Clauss (The Roman Cult of Mithras). So much isn't known and so much of what was once 'known' seems to merely be clumsy nineteenth and early twentieth century supposition based on not a lot. I do know that Praetextatus was clearly not a christian - Jerome makes that point inescapably obvious in letter XXIII by contrasting his hopes for an afterlife with those of a good christian woman who'd died.

47

Did Jesus actually start a church to himself?

by TTWSYF in

with some 30,000 different christian denominations, how would one know which one was for real?

some folks think jesus did start a church, others think no.

Mephis

The point is it's not built while he's alive. And there's no mention of him establishing one when he returns after death. His disciples had all vanished off to do what they'd been doing before following him.

There's certainly little in the way of formal doctrine established in the early Christian writings - it's all based on interpretation either of writings about Jesus, writings about what he said, or the teachings of those who knew him or who claimed to have had personal divine revelation from him. It's a cacophony of beliefs rather than a fixed catechism held in common. There are some beliefs which seem to have been beyond the pale, but 'orthodoxy', such as it was, wasn't really coming from one recognised authority. Were the Christians of Alexandria more correct than those in Antioch? Or Jerusalem? Or Rome? There's different branches, different slants, different influences at work even in the early days of Christianity. And you catch glimpses of that even in what eventually formed the canon of the New Testament.

47

Did Jesus actually start a church to himself?

by TTWSYF in

with some 30,000 different christian denominations, how would one know which one was for real?

some folks think jesus did start a church, others think no.

Mephis

I always thought that Jesus started HIS church on Peter and the apostles

Even accepting they are Jesus' own words, it's "will build" not "have built" or "am building", no?

7

bible author and dates

by Nihilistic Journey in

i seem to recall in either the green bible or the black/red leather bible a list of bible books with the supposed writer and approximate date of writing.

could anyone share that with me if you have that available?

thank you.

Mephis

1984 edition. p.1548/9 is the list. Not sure if that's changed from what's on website currently.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6Yoi3LAtDtBcmVQclZvamd6bVE/view?usp=sharing