Posts by Mephis

405

Origin of Life

by cofty in

in recent years significant progress has been made in solving the question of how life originated on our planet.. how do you think theists will respond when it finally happens?

as a former christian i know my reaction would have been something like "well that just goes to show that it takes intelligent life to make life", but for two reasons that defense doesn't work.. firstly it would prove that life is not an ethereal force that originates with god.

there is no 'ghost in the machine', no elan vital.

Mephis

In that mythological example, New life was not created from rocks, merely modified and passed on.

My contention is that JW theology on this would allow them to argue that life created by humans is of the same order of angels collecting dust (or whichever inanimate materials are supposedly required) and making their own bodies to impregnate women.

There is nothing really in their teachings which dictates how life should be transmitted. Do 'test tube' babies have 'spirit' in JW theology? But sperm isn't 'alive' (every sperm is not sacred), nor are eggs.

Cofty, and others, obviously disagree. But as we're dealing in hypotheticals based on utter gibberish masquerading as teachings there's little point me pursuing this. :)

405

Origin of Life

by cofty in

in recent years significant progress has been made in solving the question of how life originated on our planet.. how do you think theists will respond when it finally happens?

as a former christian i know my reaction would have been something like "well that just goes to show that it takes intelligent life to make life", but for two reasons that defense doesn't work.. firstly it would prove that life is not an ethereal force that originates with god.

there is no 'ghost in the machine', no elan vital.

Mephis

Appreciate that Cofty. Long thread. I think doctors bringing someone back to life really would hit the button you're wanting to hit there. That's definitely not possible under JW theology. Although there's some obvious get outs you know they'd use.

Just personally, I think there's sufficient noose there for them to dangle on 'creating life' without it causing too many theological issues. We both know that they've done it with other stuff. I'm not even certain it requires too much shifting here on their part. But we obviously are going to differ so no point pushing further for me :)

405

Origin of Life

by cofty in

in recent years significant progress has been made in solving the question of how life originated on our planet.. how do you think theists will respond when it finally happens?

as a former christian i know my reaction would have been something like "well that just goes to show that it takes intelligent life to make life", but for two reasons that defense doesn't work.. firstly it would prove that life is not an ethereal force that originates with god.

there is no 'ghost in the machine', no elan vital.

Mephis

I know what you're saying Cofty. But if only God can give spirit, explain the Angel babies pre-Flood. It's not a slam dunk like you think. Their teachings are an unholy globular mess because they're trying to duck the 'soul'.

405

Origin of Life

by cofty in

in recent years significant progress has been made in solving the question of how life originated on our planet.. how do you think theists will respond when it finally happens?

as a former christian i know my reaction would have been something like "well that just goes to show that it takes intelligent life to make life", but for two reasons that defense doesn't work.. firstly it would prove that life is not an ethereal force that originates with god.

there is no 'ghost in the machine', no elan vital.

Mephis

Correct. Where would you like to pretend there's a contradiction?

405

Origin of Life

by cofty in

in recent years significant progress has been made in solving the question of how life originated on our planet.. how do you think theists will respond when it finally happens?

as a former christian i know my reaction would have been something like "well that just goes to show that it takes intelligent life to make life", but for two reasons that defense doesn't work.. firstly it would prove that life is not an ethereal force that originates with god.

there is no 'ghost in the machine', no elan vital.

Mephis

The quotes I gave you above say otherwise.

You'll find I summarised the direct quote very correctly.

405

Origin of Life

by cofty in

in recent years significant progress has been made in solving the question of how life originated on our planet.. how do you think theists will respond when it finally happens?

as a former christian i know my reaction would have been something like "well that just goes to show that it takes intelligent life to make life", but for two reasons that defense doesn't work.. firstly it would prove that life is not an ethereal force that originates with god.

there is no 'ghost in the machine', no elan vital.

Mephis

This does not mean that the life-force [spirit] actually travels to heaven. Rather, it means that for someone who dies, any hope of future life rests with Jehovah God. His life is in God’s hands, so to speak. Only by God’s power can the spirit, or life-force, be given back so that a person may live again.

They've transformed the idea (and the words) into a metaphor. It's their way round the whole 'soul' problem. And it leaves lots of wriggle room on the question you pose too. God doesn't literally get the spirit back. He doesn't literally have to give it to make something alive. Or they'd have to explain where God fits in with the baby making process etc etc.

405

Origin of Life

by cofty in

in recent years significant progress has been made in solving the question of how life originated on our planet.. how do you think theists will respond when it finally happens?

as a former christian i know my reaction would have been something like "well that just goes to show that it takes intelligent life to make life", but for two reasons that defense doesn't work.. firstly it would prove that life is not an ethereal force that originates with god.

there is no 'ghost in the machine', no elan vital.

Mephis

In JW world, if science produces life from rocks the cell would have spirit. Where would that have come from?

From the scientists who were created by God. Just as angels could have babies before the Flood by making physical bodies for themselves.

You're looking for a way to pin this down when it's gibberish to start with Cofty. There isn't a huge shift required for them to explain it away. 'Spirit' is just another way of saying 'alive'.

405

Origin of Life

by cofty in

in recent years significant progress has been made in solving the question of how life originated on our planet.. how do you think theists will respond when it finally happens?

as a former christian i know my reaction would have been something like "well that just goes to show that it takes intelligent life to make life", but for two reasons that defense doesn't work.. firstly it would prove that life is not an ethereal force that originates with god.

there is no 'ghost in the machine', no elan vital.

Mephis

I don't really see it either there. The 'spirit' is like electricity in the links Cofty gave. They have to clarify that on death the spirit doesn't really go back to God because it becomes a way of saying 'something is alive' - which seems flatly in contradiction to the bible verses they have to address. The article addresses 'only' God raising the dead, but not whether God's involved every time a baby is made. (Because if he is, oops on the angels, women and Flood thing!).

The question is whether man making life would be problematic. And I'm not sure it is. In JW theology, God isn't involved in the production of spirit on a day-to-day basis. It's passed on, but he's the only originator. It's whether or not the means of transmission is an issue should scientists one day create life. I suspect that it won't be a huge problem for them to explain away, as the article SBF linked hints at.

44

Canadian Appeal Court decision made the news: Judges can overturn unfair church edicts

by AndersonsInfo in

jw
friends

http://news.nationalpost.com/news/religion/alberta-appeal-court-rules-judges-can-overturn-unfair-church-edicts.

the other day, this court decision was posted on jwn along with a link to the court document, but few expected the media to pick up the story.

so to all involved, i understand it was a surprise to see the story in print.

Mephis

Wow. This is really surprising. I can't see that ever happening in America.

The principle exists in the US where if a 'shunning' by a community impacts upon your business then there is potentially a case to be heard by a court. (eg Bear v. Reformed Mennonite Church, Pennsylvania, 1975). But, you're right, more often civil law isn't keen at all to intervene in cases like this. We may disagree with the parallel drawn about a religious community being like a private members' club, but that is how they have been treated for things like this for a very long time across a number of jurisdictions. A court can't force people not to shun someone.
Will be interesting to see what practical remedy is suggested by the Canadian courts should they ultimately rule in this man's favour.

405

Origin of Life

by cofty in

in recent years significant progress has been made in solving the question of how life originated on our planet.. how do you think theists will respond when it finally happens?

as a former christian i know my reaction would have been something like "well that just goes to show that it takes intelligent life to make life", but for two reasons that defense doesn't work.. firstly it would prove that life is not an ethereal force that originates with god.

there is no 'ghost in the machine', no elan vital.

Mephis

Does 'the breath of life' actually need to come from God? You're right, there's absurdities in there, but they've shuffle room. 'God's creation made life therefore it's still coming from God'. That kind of nonsense. 'When a baby is born, God doesn't breathe life into each and very baby...;. 'It's a metaphor...;.