Posts by Mephis

74

That's it! The Jesus stories are most reasonably explained as myth. History makes this obvious.

by Island Man in

a careful examination of the historical pagan religious context existing at the time of the genesis of christianity leads any reasonable person to conclude that jesus is just another one of several similar myths.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kn7teoa9ark.

Mephis

Perry, you've chosen to answer the most minor of points raised in objection to your previous post. In fact one which really doesn't need answering as you say you're in agreement with everything but Ehrman's ability to use his knowledge to get tenure. The very fact that you and millions of Christians need to make the choice over which version to accept should really demonstrate the silliness of trying to argue for the infallibility of the bible. Which bible? How did you choose? Who chose the things which went into the bible you're saying is infallible? How did they choose? Why should anyone trust their choice? What if the Gnostics were right? What if Arian was? How do you know your own texts haven't been written or edited to support a belief which wasn't what Christ taught? And so on, and so on.

The idea of biblical infallibility seems tied up with the notion of 'one truth' waiting there to be found. One true understanding of what Jesus really said. And I'm not sure that was even true for the generation or two after Jesus was meant to have lived. The gospel writers can't even agree amongst themselves about basic facts related to his life, and there's sufficient evidence of multiple understandings happening very early on - some of those even being alluded to in what is currently in the canon.

26

Major events that Bible did not foretell!

by iconoclastic in

jws feel that their strength lies in the power of bible to foretell.

however, an impartial analysis would show that bibles prophecies are too general, and yet some of the major developments in the world scene were not figured in its propheciesespecially those that are very much needed for what it calls last days.

to mention a few:.

Mephis

That's not a distinction which works across history iconoclastic. Terrorism typically has an aim, a goal, and the targets are chosen in order to progress that goal. War typically has an aim, a goal, and the targets are chosen in order to progress that goal. Sometimes that includes killing civilians deliberately. Sometimes that doesn't. The definition of terrorism is the use of terror/fear in order to progress a political aim. It's not a tool of just jihadis cutting people's heads off or flying planes into buildings. Fear as a tool for repression and control has a much longer history than that. And one which very much includes the time period when the new testament was being written.

The concept of a 'crime against humanity' dates from when iconoclastic? Even the Lex Innocentium is late C7th AD, and that in no way is representative of any point of history before or since. Warfare is brutal and uncivilised, much as we sanitise or mythologise how we treat it.

26

Major events that Bible did not foretell!

by iconoclastic in

jws feel that their strength lies in the power of bible to foretell.

however, an impartial analysis would show that bibles prophecies are too general, and yet some of the major developments in the world scene were not figured in its propheciesespecially those that are very much needed for what it calls last days.

to mention a few:.

Mephis

Not sure how much history you've read iconoclastic, but may I suggest that the idea of not targeting civilians during a war is actually the exception rather than the rule for human history. In the Roman world, as in many other time periods, targeting civilians was precisely how war worked. Genocide was a common tool of imperial control. Where genocide wasn't wholesale, it was typically because some elements of the population would have a future of slavery ahead of them.The idea that we're now in some sort of curious epoch of human history because civilians are targeted for violence really doesn't stand up.

More generally, I agree with your point that the bible is very general with those prophesies which have no trace of back-editing. But the bible isn't alone in that. Most 'holy' books share the same approach. And those which don't are those without prophesy.

180

What is the most bizarre counsel you received as a JW, from a JW?

by Funchback in

there were many addressed to me.

for example, i once had a sister tell me i was gambling because i liked playing skill crane (the machine where you have to try to pick up prizes like stuffed animals) at the arcade.

i then fired back a her: "you saw the r-rated movie 'backdraft.

Mephis

CO's wife turning up to eat dinner with pioneer mum. Summer holidays and the film Waterloo (PG rating, this was early afternoon British tv viewing in the late 80s) was on.Love me my historical stuff. She decided to come into the living room while dinner was being made. CO's wife then began to give a story about how violent films weren't what Jehovah liked and how watching violent things made you do violent things. I asked her about Joshua asking for the sun to stand still so he could kill his full quota of Canaanites for the day and the drama about that at the convention. She went back into the kitchen. 26 years later, I've still yet to mount a cavalry charge against the French.

45

What language was Jesus most at home with?

by fulltimestudent in

jw
friends

our former loving brothers and sisters have been instructed to think that, jesus likely spoke a form of hebrew and a form of aramaic.

(aid to bible understanding-103-105).

of course, there is no way to demonstrate the truth of that assertion or any other assertion about the languages that the common people of the land spoke.

Mephis

The answers to the nine questions he raises really don't present a challenge to the current consensus about this. Greek was the language of the educated elite, even in Roman society Greek was the culture and language of aspiration. That does not translate into it being the common language of every day discourse - any more than the use of Latin or French or English by other cultural elites meant that either. As a simple example, what was the language of the Jewish revolt of 66 - 70 AD? At a time when coins were mass media for propaganda, this isn't Greek.

27

More of What the Watchtower Didn't Teach You

by CalebInFloroda in

what kind of bible education did the governing body really give us?

how much important information about it did the watchtower really teach us?

how much are we missing out on if we are one of jehovahs witnesses?.

Mephis

As a JW, I could answer no.10, and 3 of the 4 languages of no.1 and the second part of no.8. Excellent way to make a point for anyone willing to engage in a bit of thinking. My own realisation about how little I did know was triggered by having a relationship with a Church of England ordinand who would regularly take my 'bible knowledge' to pieces whenever I challenged her. She had the patience of the saint, thank goodness!

128

Participate In The EX-JW Personality Test!

by C0ntr013r in

first of all; i must admit that i'm not a huge fan of putting people in boxes like this, it is not an exact science.

but i still think the data can be quite interesting and i intend to collect it and share it in a structured way with you guys.

so without future ado here are the details.. link to test: .

Mephis

Usually INFP, but close to ambivert and can score ENFP too.

74

That's it! The Jesus stories are most reasonably explained as myth. History makes this obvious.

by Island Man in

a careful examination of the historical pagan religious context existing at the time of the genesis of christianity leads any reasonable person to conclude that jesus is just another one of several similar myths.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kn7teoa9ark.

Mephis

The problem with the 'all scripture is inspired' bit, is which scripture did that particular writer mean? Was a letter from 'Paul' considered scripture as soon as he wrote it? One wouldn't have thought so. And when Paul was supposedly doing the apostolic thing it's very likely much of the rest of what was later decided was to form the NT canon hadn't been written either, let alone been formalised into a canon of any sort. That came about much later.

So, no, that scripture proves only that early Christians hadn't rejected what came to form the OT.

This is 101 stuff Perry. Ehrman's point is that there are thousands of differences between manuscripts for the NT. The vast bulk of those are minor, many just scribal errors. But some are quite significant. And there is ample evidence for the early Christian church being quite open to revising what they had received, not to mention adding to it further with even later writings. Paul's writings actually set the standard for this - his whole claim to being an apostle was in a divine revelation to him personally. Others clearly felt they too had been similarly chosen out in such a way. Who gets to decide which of them is right? Ehrman is quite right in saying, this is the part preceding what you quoted, that it's a fairly modern definition of being a Christian to accept that the bible is infallible. As he points out in the article you quote, there's nothing about this being a doctrinal necessity in any early christian statements of faith.

18

WATCHTOWER'S basic premise is false (i.e. copy the earliest form of Christianity and you get it 'right')

by Terry in

watchtower's so-called 'scholars' (excuse me while i throw up) have a basic premise they have always worked under.

namely, the earliest form of christianity was the purest and least corrupt.

by trying to pattern jw's after this earliest form of "purity of christian doctrine" the so-called truth is supposed to emerge.. well--apparently this is a false premise, according to bart ehrman.. _____.

Mephis

It would be interesting if the GB were to actually cite which non-canon writings of early Christianity they had consulted in order to try and emulate early Christianity. Because it really is relying on an ex cathedra pronouncement of what constitutes the 'inspired word' to use just the NT in order to try and re-create original beliefs. Surely if the early christian church found something worth reading, it should be included in the canon of anyone seeking to recreate their beliefs? But of course that can't happen because it leads to awkward questions which have even fewer answers in JWland. There's only so many references to Cedar Point, Ohio the Bible could contain after all...

The idea of 'one truth' came up on Terry's interesting thread on Papias too. There is ample evidence for early Christianity not being one detailed doctrine which all held in common. There are clear hints of that even within the New Testament with the debate over circumcision, the disagreements between converts etc. There's some debate around passages in Luke and how they relate to Marcion's version of it, isn't there?

Personally, I do wonder whether many of the early Christians were waiting for Christ's return within the first couple of generations and it was the failure of that to happen which then led to the move to reading things less literally. So perhaps at least there one could identify similarities between JWs and the early Christian church... Vladimir and Estragon are very patient in their waiting too...

43

Deconstructing Splanes 'Generation' explanation

by Splash in

at around 4 minutes into the september 2015 video splane said "for the man and the baby to be part of josephs generation they would have had to have lived at least some time during joseph's lifespan.".

this is the lynchpin of the wt argument, that two lives must overlap to be considered the same generation.. let's take an example of twins who are born just a few minutes apart.

obviously, these twins are the same generation as each other.

Mephis

So, 2025/26 is 6000 years after Adam using their current timeline. Cue rumours and excitement for the poor souls still inside - if you're reading this a decade from now, yes, they've done the subtle hinting before and they'll blame everyone but themselves for misunderstanding when it doesn't happen. 2034 is a Noah-like warning after 1914 which some seem to have already latched onto. And 2074 will be 200 years since JWs first said Christ had arrived. It's less a generation, more a relay.