Gweedo,
You asked: What convinced you?
Several things which I do not have time to debate with all the Bible critics on this board. You may E mail me privately if you like.
aChristian
JoinedPosts by aChristian
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120
Quality of this Forum
by stevieb1 injust a quick thought - i am a firm believer in freedom of speech etc, but having been on this forum for some time i honestly can't say that i can introduce a doubting jw interested in true christianity to this board.
some of the deep discussions on jw doctrine are excellent, but everything else seems to be nonsense in my opinion.
why can't this site be more like the old www.witnesses.net which seemed to have more spiritual meat rather than backbiting, gossip, and rumour and even obscenity.. sorry for my frank opinion
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120
Quality of this Forum
by stevieb1 injust a quick thought - i am a firm believer in freedom of speech etc, but having been on this forum for some time i honestly can't say that i can introduce a doubting jw interested in true christianity to this board.
some of the deep discussions on jw doctrine are excellent, but everything else seems to be nonsense in my opinion.
why can't this site be more like the old www.witnesses.net which seemed to have more spiritual meat rather than backbiting, gossip, and rumour and even obscenity.. sorry for my frank opinion
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aChristian
Jan,
You wrote: "He speculated wildly"
Cut me a break. I said, "the Bible tells us, "Herod was afraid of the people because they considered John a prophet." (Matt. 14:5) That being the case, it is very likely that Herod ordered that his killing of John not be publicized.
That is hardly "speculating wildly." In fact, I am very surprised that Herod allowed the news of his dastardly deed to get out.
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120
Quality of this Forum
by stevieb1 injust a quick thought - i am a firm believer in freedom of speech etc, but having been on this forum for some time i honestly can't say that i can introduce a doubting jw interested in true christianity to this board.
some of the deep discussions on jw doctrine are excellent, but everything else seems to be nonsense in my opinion.
why can't this site be more like the old www.witnesses.net which seemed to have more spiritual meat rather than backbiting, gossip, and rumour and even obscenity.. sorry for my frank opinion
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aChristian
Dave,
You wrote: Would you like to read some things that have brought me to these conclusions?
I have read many such things before. Similarities do not prove influence. Jesus was a Jew. As such, He was greatly influenced by the Hebrew scriptures and the Jewish religion of His day. I believe that influence, along with the direct influence of God's Holy Spirit were his only spiritual influences.
It is, of course, possible that the influence of the Jewish religion which began some 1,500 years before Christ, and the influence of the religion of men such as Adam, Noah and Abraham which began thousands of years earlier than that, may have spread into eastern lands several thousands of years before Christ. It is also possible that, in ages long past, God revealed many of His truths to people in all parts of the earth who never came into contact with people living in the "Bible lands." (The story of Job, for instance, comes to mind. The Bible calls him, "The greatest man among all the people of the East." It also tells us that he lived in "the land of Uz." But Bible scholars have no real idea where that was.)
I am, however, convinced that God has revealed His greatest truths only through the person and work of Jesus Christ.
You asked: Are you saying that all religions teach good and moral things?
For the most part, certainly. I know few Christians who would say otherwise.
You wrote: If so, why did you choose Christianity? Geographical location? Familiarity with basic concept?
Those things certainly facilitated my conversion. But I refused to believe the Bible was the word of God until a thorough study of science and history convinced me that it was.
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120
Quality of this Forum
by stevieb1 injust a quick thought - i am a firm believer in freedom of speech etc, but having been on this forum for some time i honestly can't say that i can introduce a doubting jw interested in true christianity to this board.
some of the deep discussions on jw doctrine are excellent, but everything else seems to be nonsense in my opinion.
why can't this site be more like the old www.witnesses.net which seemed to have more spiritual meat rather than backbiting, gossip, and rumour and even obscenity.. sorry for my frank opinion
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aChristian
Jan,
It simply slipped my mind that Josephus recorded Herod's killing of John. I read it years ago and, in fact, I had it underlined in my copy of Josephus.
You seem very willing to say that I and other Christians refuse to reject the story of scripture because we want it to be true. However, I have been very careful not to say that you reject the story of scripture because you want it not to be true. I'll leave such a judgment to God.
However, I will say that I believe God caused the Bible to be written in just the way that it was, and may have even caused secular historians to omit certain things from their historical records, to allow those who wish to reject the story of scripture to be able to do just that.
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120
Quality of this Forum
by stevieb1 injust a quick thought - i am a firm believer in freedom of speech etc, but having been on this forum for some time i honestly can't say that i can introduce a doubting jw interested in true christianity to this board.
some of the deep discussions on jw doctrine are excellent, but everything else seems to be nonsense in my opinion.
why can't this site be more like the old www.witnesses.net which seemed to have more spiritual meat rather than backbiting, gossip, and rumour and even obscenity.. sorry for my frank opinion
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aChristian
WW,
You wrote: I however disagree that there is only one right way to God.
If you ever meet Jesus be sure to tell Him that you disagree with what He said in John 14:6 about how He is the only way to God. I am sure He will be very interested in your opinion.
You wrote: God is a God of love and I do not believe he wants to condemn nations of people just because they were brought up to believe something you do not.
Neither do I. I believe He will judge all who have not heard the good news of Jesus Christ mercifully. I am not so sure about those who have heard it and have rejected it.
By the way, I agree with you that there is much good in all religious belief systems.
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120
Quality of this Forum
by stevieb1 injust a quick thought - i am a firm believer in freedom of speech etc, but having been on this forum for some time i honestly can't say that i can introduce a doubting jw interested in true christianity to this board.
some of the deep discussions on jw doctrine are excellent, but everything else seems to be nonsense in my opinion.
why can't this site be more like the old www.witnesses.net which seemed to have more spiritual meat rather than backbiting, gossip, and rumour and even obscenity.. sorry for my frank opinion
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aChristian
Dave,
I said this board is "for the most part a vast spiritual wasteland" because, as I also said, "By far, most discussions which take place here contain very little spiritual, intellectual or philosophical content."
I never said or implied "that if a person does not believe in Christianity then they are not considered spiritual." Obviously that statement makes no sense, since a person has to be interested in spiritual things, and thus be a "spiritual" person, before they become a Christian.
You wrote: There are several people on this board who have studied religion without the side blinders of trying to prove one better or more "true" than the other.
I am one of them.
You wrote: Christians like yourself feel that basic human decency is exclusive to your brand of religion
I do not feel that basic human decency is exclusive to my brand of religion. I feel it is taught and practiced by people in nearly all religions. You really shouldn't make statements which attack the character and beliefs of others unless you know for a fact that those statements are true.
You wrote: Just don't come off as someone who "knows all" and tells others that you alone own the one and only "truth" about life. We've had it up to our eye balls with exclusivity of spirituality and the one and only "truth."
Since you "have had it up to your eyeballs with exclusivity" you may want to avoid reading the New Testament. For, as I pointed out, Jesus said, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." (John 14:6) I wonder why Jesus would say such a thing, seeing He was "so incredibly influenced by both Hindu and Buddhist religions," as you say.
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120
Quality of this Forum
by stevieb1 injust a quick thought - i am a firm believer in freedom of speech etc, but having been on this forum for some time i honestly can't say that i can introduce a doubting jw interested in true christianity to this board.
some of the deep discussions on jw doctrine are excellent, but everything else seems to be nonsense in my opinion.
why can't this site be more like the old www.witnesses.net which seemed to have more spiritual meat rather than backbiting, gossip, and rumour and even obscenity.. sorry for my frank opinion
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aChristian
Jan,
You wrote: Jesus allegedly fed what corresponded to the population of an entire city miraculously (twice!).
However, few among them may have been aware of the miraculous nature of their meal. For Jesus gave the loaves and fishes He had multiplied "to his disciples and they in turn to the people." (Matt. 15:36) Those who did understand what had just taken place and told such a story to others would hardly have been taken seriously by secular historians.
You wrote: Herod did a crime so extreme it is amazing if it was not recorded (e.g. by Josephus, who carefully listed many lesser crimes by Herod).
You are speaking, I presume of Herod's killing of John the baptist. As the Bible tells us, "Herod was afraid of the people because they considered John a prophet." (Matt. 14:5) That being the case, it is very likely that Herod ordered that his killing of John not be publicized. His order may have been quite successful in keeping his actions from the public at large.
You wrote: Not to mention all those "saints" suddenly resurrected and walking around in Jerusalem talking to people.
You, of course, refer to Matt. 27:52,53. As you probably know, the exact meaning of this passage is disputed. Some say that the resurrection there spoken of was a heavenly one and "the holy city" into which the resurrected ones entered was "Jerusalem above." Others say that this passage only speaks of an earthquake which rocked a grave yard. However, I believe the popular interpretation which you allude to is correct. I just think that, then as now, when ridiculous sounding claims seldom get repeated by "respectable" historians.
So far as your other attacks against the Bible's credibility and your allegations that it is filled with contradictions, I believe I could offer reasonable explanations for every one of your alleged "contradictions." But what would be the point? Even if you were convinced that the Bible contains no contradictions, as you have said, you are not going to accept extraordinary claims without extraordinary evidence of their accuracy. And as I have said, I believe that if you are willing to believe God and serve Him He will eventually provide you with all the evidence you need to put your Faith in Him.
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120
Quality of this Forum
by stevieb1 injust a quick thought - i am a firm believer in freedom of speech etc, but having been on this forum for some time i honestly can't say that i can introduce a doubting jw interested in true christianity to this board.
some of the deep discussions on jw doctrine are excellent, but everything else seems to be nonsense in my opinion.
why can't this site be more like the old www.witnesses.net which seemed to have more spiritual meat rather than backbiting, gossip, and rumour and even obscenity.. sorry for my frank opinion
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aChristian
Jan,
You wrote: Look, for example, to any thread asking for evidence for a historical Christ. We get Rex or someone else posting the same spurious list of quotations that have been debunked countless times on this board and elsewhere.
It does not surprise me that few if any first century secular historians paid much attention to the ministry of Jesus of Nazareth. However, plenty of "evidence for a historical Jesus" exists in the pages of the New Testament itself. For instance, Luke, who was a contemporary of Jesus Christ and took full credit for writing the gospel bearing his name, tells us that he interviewed many eyewitnesses to the events he recorded and conducted his investigation very carefully. (Luke 1:1-4; Acts 1:1-3)
You wrote: Read about the alleged experiences of Muhammad, and ask yourself: is it intellectually fair to reject Muhammad's conversion and still believe in Paul's?
No, it is not. However, I am not asking you to do so. I have only said that the time may yet come when you will find enough evidence to become a believer, as many have done. Some people obviously require more evidence than others in order to believe in One they cannot see. I have said that I believe that if your heart is still open to God that He will eventually provide you with all the evidence you need to come to Him. I was a tough sell. As apparently was Paul. It took us both a bit longer to become believers than it does some people. But I believe God provided us both with the kind of evidence we needed, and I believe He will in His time do the same for you if your heart is open to having Him do so.
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120
Quality of this Forum
by stevieb1 injust a quick thought - i am a firm believer in freedom of speech etc, but having been on this forum for some time i honestly can't say that i can introduce a doubting jw interested in true christianity to this board.
some of the deep discussions on jw doctrine are excellent, but everything else seems to be nonsense in my opinion.
why can't this site be more like the old www.witnesses.net which seemed to have more spiritual meat rather than backbiting, gossip, and rumour and even obscenity.. sorry for my frank opinion
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aChristian
WW,
You asked: Cannot God be found other ways?
I am a Christian. A Christian is a person who believes the teachings of Jesus Christ. Jesus taught, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." I believe that when Jesus said "no one" that He meant "no one."
You asked: Are you saying all members of eastern religions are wrong?
I believe they are. WW, not everyone can be right about everything. When several belief systems clearly contradict each other they cannot all be right. They may all be wrong. But they can't all be right. The eastern religions disagree with the teachings of Christianity in many ways. That means if Christianity is right they must be wrong. You have to decide for yourself which religion, if any, is right. But you cannot logically say that many different religions, all of which clearly contradict each other in many different ways, are all correct in what they teach.
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120
Quality of this Forum
by stevieb1 injust a quick thought - i am a firm believer in freedom of speech etc, but having been on this forum for some time i honestly can't say that i can introduce a doubting jw interested in true christianity to this board.
some of the deep discussions on jw doctrine are excellent, but everything else seems to be nonsense in my opinion.
why can't this site be more like the old www.witnesses.net which seemed to have more spiritual meat rather than backbiting, gossip, and rumour and even obscenity.. sorry for my frank opinion
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aChristian
AB,
You wrote: You are presupposing that god exists
No, I am not. As I said, after leaving the JWs I was a nonbeliever for many years until I found evidence which convinced me of His existence.
You wrote: you assume those "not really willing to serve God" will not find enough evidence to compel them to acknowledge his existence.
Yes, I do. There is not enough evidence of anything to compel people to believe in something they really do not want to believe in. Remember the first O.J. Simpson trial? Some people still believe the world is flat and say all evidence to the contrary, photos from space and the like, has been faked.
You wrote: Surely it is the creators responsibility to make sure there is no reasonable doubt as to its existence in its creation's minds?
You use the word "surely." However, as a Christian, I value Jesus Christ's opinion more "surely" than I value yours. The Bible tells us that Jesus Christ is the Creator of our universe. (Col. 1:16) And it clearly indicates that He does not share your opinion of "the creator's responsibility" in this area.
Mark tells us that whenever Jesus spoke to crowds of people which contained both His friends and His enemies, "He did not say anything to them without using a parable. But when he was alone with his own disciples he explained everything. " (Mark 4:34) Why did Jesus speak in parables? Why did He go to all the trouble of telling such often hard to understand stories to crowds which gathered to hear Him speak? Was the purpose of Christ's parables to "make sure there is no reasonable doubt" in people's minds that Jesus was in fact the Christ? No, it was not. In fact often Jesus' purpose in speaking the way that He did was just the opposite. Jesus told His disciples, "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of God has been given to you, but to others I speak in parables, so that though seeing they may not see and though hearing they may not understand." (Luke 8:10, see also Mt. 13:10-15)
Jesus understood that many of His listeners had hearts hardened against Him, and from such people, through the use of parables, He deliberately withheld "the knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of God." He did so by incorporating into those parables elements which He knew His enemies would find fault with and would end up stumbling over. This does not to me sound like a Creator who feels it is His "responsibility to make sure there is no reasonable doubt as to [His] existence in [His] creation's minds."
Jan,
You wrote: Once people have rejected the claims of the WTS, why should they consider the claims of the Bible or Christianity to be above criticism?
They should not.
You wrote: Wouldn't it be intellectual dishonesty to apply stringent standards to WTS claims, yet accepting mainstream Christian doctrine "on faith"?
Yes, it would.
You wrote: Your belief system can simply not accomodate people who honestly wanted to believe as I once did, but found the evidence not only insufficient, but totally lacking.
Yes, it can. I believe that those who are honestly willing to believe will eventually find enough evidence to put their faith in the God of the Bible. It took me quite a few years. It may take some a bit longer. Your life is not over yet. The apostle Paul spent many years as a strong opposer of Jesus Christ before he found enough evidence to change his mind. If and when you do the same, I believe you may like Paul become not just a believer but a powerful evangelist.