I see your point.
Freedom77
JoinedPosts by Freedom77
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8
Were the first Christians a high-control cult?
by Freedom77 inafter i left the borganization, age 21 going on 22, i stopped praying and was totally uninterested in any religion, and for about 10 years i was at best agnostic.
then, omitting a long story, i realized i missed spirituality in my life and eventually felt gently but definitely led to a mainstream protestant church, which suited me fine at first.. but i discovered that church is just not the place for a single man, especially a single gay man: despite what anybody may say about being welcoming to all kinds of people, the kinds of people who go to church (all churches) are overwhelmingly straight couples with kids, their grandmas and grandpas, and little old blue-haired widows.
very nice people for the most part, and totally undogmatic or pushy as the jw's are, but i have nothing in common with them outside of sunday service.. yes i tried going to sunday school classes, bible studies, church suppers, etc.
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At some point in the future, you WILL be gay.
by rory-ks inhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rgekcfofaau.
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Freedom77
Billy, you crack me up. You're right, it takes no practice . . . but practice makes perfect!
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If there was a pill that could open their eyes - would you give it to them?
by truthseeker inif there was a pill you could give to your jw family members that would awaken their eyes to the truth about the cult, would you give it to them?.
most would probably say yes.. but what about those who are completely institutionalized, the elderly, the super zealous, the geeky kids who have no friends, the misfits?.
some people need "boundaries", they need someone to lead and give them directions, they need a sense of belonging, even in an organization that has no social programs.
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Freedom77
As my non-JW mom always said, two wrongs don't make a right.
Theist or atheist, I think we would all agree that every human being has innate dignity and worth, and fundamental rights, including the right to choose - right or wrong - one's own belief system. To violate that freedom is to degrade their humanity and your own down to the level of master and slave, or owner and animal. It's wickedly wrong to force anyone to do what you want them to do, just because you can.
As someone said earlier in this thread, it's also important not to take someone's hope away. If you forced someone to "see the truth" - and doesn't that have a nasty, totalitarian ring to it? - and replaced it with nothing, and then they killed themselves out of despair, would you really be able to brush it off, live with yourself?
I would not force anyone to take such a pill. I would earnestly urge them to take it. But never by means of force.
Otherwise, you're just being an Orwellian bully, planting your boot on a human face. We all have the right to make bad choices as well as good ones. It's not up to you or me to play God with other people's lives.
If you disagree, I hear they have some swell job openings at Guantanamo you should look into, would be right up your alley.
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Bacteria That Eats Electrons
by metatron inhttp://www.impactlab.net/2014/07/18/electric-life-forms-that-live-on-pure-energy-are-unlike-any-other-life-on-earth/.
the amazing diversity and adaptive nature of life.
we're just finding out what lives on this planet.. .
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Freedom77
That's some f****** weird sh!t there.
Wonder if this will lead to New Light (TM): In the new system of things, neither animals nor humans will be carnivores, or even herbivores. Thanks to Jehovah's gracious provisions for a righteous, peaceful new earth, where all life forms live in harmony, they will take nourishment by wiggling their nether digits in the soil and sucking up a satisfying, nutritious meal of pure electrons, an unending supply . . . .
Don't laugh. With the batsh!t crazy GB, it could happen.
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Were the first Christians a high-control cult?
by Freedom77 inafter i left the borganization, age 21 going on 22, i stopped praying and was totally uninterested in any religion, and for about 10 years i was at best agnostic.
then, omitting a long story, i realized i missed spirituality in my life and eventually felt gently but definitely led to a mainstream protestant church, which suited me fine at first.. but i discovered that church is just not the place for a single man, especially a single gay man: despite what anybody may say about being welcoming to all kinds of people, the kinds of people who go to church (all churches) are overwhelmingly straight couples with kids, their grandmas and grandpas, and little old blue-haired widows.
very nice people for the most part, and totally undogmatic or pushy as the jw's are, but i have nothing in common with them outside of sunday service.. yes i tried going to sunday school classes, bible studies, church suppers, etc.
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Freedom77
Thanks for the responses, guys.
MadGiant: When I was coming into the church, I did do extensive reading in early church history, incl. Eusebius, as well as the writings of the early church fathers, incl. the Apostolic Consitutions, and worldly historians. You are right that there were many sects that sprang up in the first century, with interpretations that were all over the place, mixed up with a lot of already existing pagan thought or batshit crazy stuff that Russell and Rutherford would be proud of. Marcion, for one, had a great insight about the vengeful, tribal God of the Hebrews being a very different character from the loving, universal God that Jesus taught; but Marcion had his weird ideas too that make no sense today. I also read what worldy and Christian scholars in recent times have had to say about the first century church; but since they have (I assume) never been JW's, nobody examines the question of whether they were a JW-style high control cult, or at least I've not come across any.
kneehighmiah: Your theory is intriguing and seems plausible on the surface, I wonder if anyone has written on this specific issue.
cofty: More explanation needed. Dangerous - how? why?
Quendi: Appreciate your kind thoughts. I'm well aware of MCC but never lived where there was a functioning, flourishing congregation. I also was at one point in the mid-1990s directly involved with trying to set up a local LGBT support fellowship for the church I belonged to in a fair-sized city - but then my circumstances changed radically, I had to start working nights, and lost touch with them. Also at another time the local gay-friendly United Church of Christ tried to sponsor an LGBT spirituality group - no leader was provided, just the offer of a room and a time to meet - but only five of us showed up, 2 guys and 3 gals - silly me, I wanted to talk about prayer and scripture but the other four wanted to talk about partying, so I was made to feel a complete nerd and the group only met a handful of times before disintegrating. Occasionally too I've had gay or lesbian friends who were spiritually active in one "new age" group or another, but their path was just not the path for me. So to sum up, my circumstances have never been very good in the way of religious fellowship, and I'm past wanting all that now, but I hope your path is an easier one than mine was.
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My frist email letter from my JW Dad. So sad...
by suavojr ini am in my early 30s and woke up to ttatt in late 2012. my dad just turned 65 in june!
wow, i never saw that being possible.. .
he just got himself a computer and was able to get internet in a remote location where he is serving as an elder with my mom (where the need is great) i was happy to see how he was able to send me a few notes saying hi and i was able to share some pictures of my wife and family, etc.. .
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Freedom77
Magnum, you're welcome. That jwfacts.com has tons of great quotes, very impressive site.
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Would like all of your imput on this. Please
by Still Totally ADD inboth reopened mind and i are now in our early 60's and it seems our conversations lately have been on putting everything up for sale and buying a rv and travel until we can't anymore.
it has been a dream of ours for along time to see all the site's in the u.s. and canada.
we feel we could make money as we go by selling and teaching using herbs and gardening.
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Freedom77
Wow, that's an excellent summary, STADD. Now you and your wife can take your time to discuss and think through each one carefully in the time before you are ready to hit the road, and come up with a plan that is sensible, workable, and really right for you. All good wishes to you.
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My frist email letter from my JW Dad. So sad...
by suavojr ini am in my early 30s and woke up to ttatt in late 2012. my dad just turned 65 in june!
wow, i never saw that being possible.. .
he just got himself a computer and was able to get internet in a remote location where he is serving as an elder with my mom (where the need is great) i was happy to see how he was able to send me a few notes saying hi and i was able to share some pictures of my wife and family, etc.. .
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Freedom77
That is indeed sad. Your dad's old enough to remember the 1975 debacle as I do, and how very very very SURE everyone was - and was required to be! - that Armageddon would strike by October 5/6, 1975. People sold their houses, quit their jobs (I knew an elder who did just that) to pioneer right up to "the end" - which is still not here. But the brainwashing is sooo strong.
I don't know what to advise, head-on confrontation will only make him feel persecuted and defensive. But now that he has a computer, mmm maybe you might accidentally (?) send him a link from time to time like this one. http://www.jwfacts.com/
Or maybe not, up to you. You have my sympathies. Good luck.
PS-----Just came across this WT quote, thought it might be useful to you sometime or other - from http://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/last-days.php
Apocalyptic religions, such as Jehovah's Witnesses, believe the Last Days to be a short period of time; generally the one they presently live in. The Watchtower's founder, Russell, taught that the "time of the end" started in 1799, borrowing his complex eschatology from the nineteenth century Adventist movement. He claimed his lifetime, the 1800's, had the worst conditions in history, proving the Last Days would end in 1914.
"... our readers are writing to know if there may not be a mistake in the 1914 date. They do not see how present conditions can hold out so long under the strain." Watchtower 1894 Jul 15 p.224
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At some point in the future, you WILL be gay.
by rory-ks inhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rgekcfofaau.
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Freedom77
"Homosexuality will be wildly obligatory" . . . hahahahahahaha!
Seriously, folks, this is the very definition of homophobia: irrational fear of homosexuals.
Which reminds me of something I heard at a PFLAG meeting years ago.
Somebody's mom was relating a story of a lesbian talking with a co-worker who said "I don't like being around homosexuals because I'm always afraid they'll try to make a pass at me or something."
To which the lesbian replied, "What makes you think you're that damn sexy?"
(PFLAG, for those who don't know: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PFLAG)
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Were the first Christians a high-control cult?
by Freedom77 inafter i left the borganization, age 21 going on 22, i stopped praying and was totally uninterested in any religion, and for about 10 years i was at best agnostic.
then, omitting a long story, i realized i missed spirituality in my life and eventually felt gently but definitely led to a mainstream protestant church, which suited me fine at first.. but i discovered that church is just not the place for a single man, especially a single gay man: despite what anybody may say about being welcoming to all kinds of people, the kinds of people who go to church (all churches) are overwhelmingly straight couples with kids, their grandmas and grandpas, and little old blue-haired widows.
very nice people for the most part, and totally undogmatic or pushy as the jw's are, but i have nothing in common with them outside of sunday service.. yes i tried going to sunday school classes, bible studies, church suppers, etc.
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Freedom77
After I left the Borganization, age 21 going on 22, I stopped praying and was totally uninterested in any religion, and for about 10 years I was at best agnostic. Then, omitting a long story, I realized I missed spirituality in my life and eventually felt gently but definitely led to a mainstream protestant church, which suited me fine at first.
But I discovered that church is just not the place for a single man, especially a single gay man: despite what anybody may say about being welcoming to all kinds of people, the kinds of people who go to church (all churches) are overwhelmingly straight couples with kids, their grandmas and grandpas, and little old blue-haired widows. Very nice people for the most part, and totally undogmatic or pushy as the JW's are, but I have nothing in common with them outside of Sunday service.
Yes I tried going to Sunday school classes, Bible studies, church suppers, etc. - but no dice. It's nobody's fault, but with all the JW conditioning about remaining aloof from "worldly associations" having warped my adolescent years and consequently my adult personality, I'm just not a good socializer either in a nightclub or in a church, nor can I relate to conversations about childcare or sports teams or let-me-tell-you-about-my-grandchildren.
And please, don't bother telling me about ooh-there's-this-cool-gay-friendly-church here or there or wherever. Maybe so, but I'm stuck in a small town 90 miles from civilization, and frankly I just don't care about churchgoing anymore, gay, straight, or whatever. Omitting more long stories and details, some trivial (work schedules) and some devastating (sudden, unexpected deaths in my family), for the past decade I've been just "on-hold" about religion in general, which both JW and non-JW has simply not worked out for me as advertised, not at all. Which is a greater let-down than I can tell you.
What that means for me about the existence of God is something that presses on the borders of my mind but I'm not willing to go there yet. And that's my business, not anyone else's. So please, no Bible verses, testimonies about what-Jesus-did-for-me, or hard-boiled polemics about there-is-no-freakin-God. I am fully capable of making up my own mind on the issue when and if I get ready to do so.
The teachings of Jesus are worth study, but I do wonder sometimes if I've been operating on a flawed conception of the origins of Christianity as we know it: hence my question, which anybody is welcome to answer, theist, atheist, or in between: Do you think the first Christians were as high-control and fanatical as the modern Jaydubs are?
Of course in the first century there were no printing plants or magazines or corporations or field service or crazy-ass doctrines like "the generation of 1914" that the FDS has contrived and re-contrived for a hundred-plus years now. BUT - all those differences aside, were the first Christians just the meek, mild, sweet little innocents thrown to the lions as so often portrayed in movies and religious books - or were they actually more like the modern JW's, self-righteous, fanatical, and willing to drink the kool-aid anytime, anywhere?
There are some lovely, lofty thoughts in the Bible, but it's like diamonds scattered in a pile of antique cultural manure, seems like. Maybe it's just me, but at this late date, it's difficult to read the God-loves-us-and-hates-everyone-else parts of the New Testament without thinking, this is just like something the Borg would say. What do you think, folks?