Posts by OrphanCrow

98

Steve Hassan. Can some one verify if this is true.

by joe134cd in

https://culteducation.com/group/1289-general-information/8227-disclaimer-regarding-steve-hassan.html.

OrphanCrow

Drwho: He mentioned once that a Cult education website had been bought out by Scientology , which in turn kept the original name, maybe this is the website ?

It is the Cult Awareness Network that was bought by Scientology

583

What is the purpose of life?

by slimboyfat in

while reading the magazines the other day it occurred to me that jws never really had a very good answer to that question.

because it was aimed at young people and it said something along the lines, "if you believe in god you have a purpose, but if you don't believe in god your life has no purpose or meaning".

i think that is a faulty analysis of the situation.

OrphanCrow

looter: Of course you would say I know nothing about it because you don't even believe in God and like, Viviane, you believe my faith to be juvenile.

You know nothing about my beliefs or lack of beliefs. Nothing. You think you know. But you don't.

And that is what faith is. Thinking you know what it is that you don't know.

Pretending you have knowledge when you have none.

All faith is juvenile. It is the nature of faith.

And you, sir(?), exhibit juvenile behavior.

583

What is the purpose of life?

by slimboyfat in

while reading the magazines the other day it occurred to me that jws never really had a very good answer to that question.

because it was aimed at young people and it said something along the lines, "if you believe in god you have a purpose, but if you don't believe in god your life has no purpose or meaning".

i think that is a faulty analysis of the situation.

OrphanCrow

looter: You don't have to be old to hold true beliefs, you know.

I know. We agree on the point that anybody can hold any belief. Belief is like that - it applies to anything that we know nothing about. Where we don't agree is on the insertion of the word 'true' before 'belief'.

Now, can you tell me what is the difference between believing in Santa Claus and believing in a god in the sky? Do you believe in Santa Claus?

583

What is the purpose of life?

by slimboyfat in

while reading the magazines the other day it occurred to me that jws never really had a very good answer to that question.

because it was aimed at young people and it said something along the lines, "if you believe in god you have a purpose, but if you don't believe in god your life has no purpose or meaning".

i think that is a faulty analysis of the situation.

OrphanCrow

Looter: I am not a brat! I am almost 20 and I've had a great life in my day and I'm probably more of a man than you'll ever be! So shush, you disrespectful gumbo.

Lol!

hahaha!

I love this thread.

My morning entertainment.

Tell me, Looter, let me guess....you were teaching in the synagogue when you were twelve, too, weren't you?

38

What is the biggest hypocrisy you have seen as a witness?

by HereIgo in

i have far too many to name, but ill start with obscene music, gambling and cussing like a sailor.

all the while preaching to "worldly people" about their impending death at armageddon.

thoughts?.

OrphanCrow

The biggest hypocrisy?

The WT's acceptance of Hemopure - a manufactured blood product made from cow's blood. Animal blood.

For decades, they have stood on a bad interpretation of an old biblical edict against the eating of animal blood - not human blood - as justification for refusing life saving blood transfusions. And then...when it became valuable to the WTS...for whatever reason...they said it is okay to have a blood transfusion made from the same blood that the Bible forbid - animal blood.

That is hypocritical. Ban human blood transfusions based on a biblical scripture about animal blood but then allow blood transfusions using animal blood.

48

"Basics of Blood Management" by Dr. Petra Seeber and Dr. Aryeh Shander - Inaccuracies and Myth

by OrphanCrow in

patient blood management arose out of bloodless medicine and alternatives to blood transfusions.

pbm has been accepted as the standard of care in australia and has been implemented into the health care systems of other countries such as canada.

a prominent promoter of pbm has been aryeh shander from englewood hospital in new jersey.

OrphanCrow

Has the textbook really played a role 1979 was it not publsihed 2007?

The textbook is the place that 1979 was mentioned. Seeber/Shander give the history of blood management. I am filling in some blanks and examining the inconsistencies with the actual history. The Seeber/Shander account is myth building history, not entirely factual.

48

"Basics of Blood Management" by Dr. Petra Seeber and Dr. Aryeh Shander - Inaccuracies and Myth

by OrphanCrow in

patient blood management arose out of bloodless medicine and alternatives to blood transfusions.

pbm has been accepted as the standard of care in australia and has been implemented into the health care systems of other countries such as canada.

a prominent promoter of pbm has been aryeh shander from englewood hospital in new jersey.

OrphanCrow

WofY: Was the textbook given in 1979 or 2007?

The Seeber/Shander textbook "Basics of Blood Management", was first published in 2007. Second edition 2013.

Yes, the HLC became official in 1979. After years of preparation and shuffling around to get organized.

The WTS operates the Hospital Information Services which is the parent organization of the HLC network worldwide and a clearing house for all things related to blood.

Chapter 20 in the Seeber/Shander textbook has more details about the current structure of the medical arm of the WTS.

The material that the HLC used in 1979 would have been built on those first three volumes that Penton spoke about - the first being published in 1973. That volume of blood alternatives grew into a ten volume set by 2001:

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B4oXVPm4nrmfY2dkTjh3ZGpfczQ

What the HLC uses now for a reference manual, I don't know. The Seeber/Shander textbook is not directed towards the HLC. It is for use in the education of blood management professionals - who may or may not be JWs.

48

"Basics of Blood Management" by Dr. Petra Seeber and Dr. Aryeh Shander - Inaccuracies and Myth

by OrphanCrow in

patient blood management arose out of bloodless medicine and alternatives to blood transfusions.

pbm has been accepted as the standard of care in australia and has been implemented into the health care systems of other countries such as canada.

a prominent promoter of pbm has been aryeh shander from englewood hospital in new jersey.

OrphanCrow

The Esperanza Intercommunity Hospital in Yorba Linda, California. This hospital was owned by Jehovah's Witnesses.

Ron Lapin worked at this hospital in the early 80s, after he had ran out of other hospitals to work at. He had a little problem with malpractice suits following him around.

Dr. Herk Hutchins. He was NOT working at the Esperanza Hospital when Lapin started there. Hutchins was retired when he met Lapin. Hutchins, a JW, was the "medical adviser" for an insurance company owned by himself and two other JWs at the time they approached Lapin with an offer. The insurance company sold health insurance only to married JW couples and only if both were JWs in good standing. They asked Lapin to put in a "hot-line" so that they could route JW patients to him.

Ron Lapin was not part of Dr. Herk Hutchins surgical team but Lapin did manage to talk old Herk into being part of his team - the old guy donned scrubs and assisted Lapin eventually.

Seeber/Shander say that "Critics labelled him a quack". Now there is an understatement. For details and background on Lapin's shady life:

The rise and fall of Ron Lapin

Note that the hospital that Seeber/Shander refer to - Esperanza Intercommunity Hospital - was investigated by the California Medical Association and the facility's management replaced.

Ron Lapin was unable to get a medical doctor's degree in the States (he was an osteopathic surgeon) and resorted to eventually getting one from a Netherlands Hospital in 1983 - Lapin submitted his doctoral paper as from Tel Aviv and in it, he reported on 4,632 JW patients who he operated on from 1973 to 1982.

The Feasibility and Physiological Aspects of Anesthesia and Surgery Without the Use of Homologous Blood Transfusions

SeeberShander say that Lapin started the first blood management/bloodless journal. Yes, Lapin had to. He didn't have anybody to call on as an 'expert' to back him up when he was being investigated by the CMA - and there wasn't any scientific literature that supported him. He had to start a journal - he needed material to present to the CMA when he was being investigated and couldn't find any or anybody...so he made up his own credibility. And so was born the 'evidence based' source that blood management needed.

The one event that happened in 1979 that is significant, and the one that I think was the reason that the WTS made the hospital committees official, was an event that Ron Lapin was somewhat involved in.

The Fluosol- DA trials. The blood substitute that was going to be a miracle. The product developed and supplied by a Japanese company - Green Cross. The first human trials.

Ron Lapin claims that he was approached by a Japanese doctor who wanted Lapin to help with setting up clinical trials for this new product (an oxygen carrier that mice could be submerged in and still live) and the reason that he wanted Ronny's help was because of Herk's Hot-line and the connections Ronny had to the target test group - Jehovah's Witnesses.

That was in 1979. The trials started in November 79 but the product had received FDA approval in February.

Ronny got really angry that he was not the first doctor to use Fluosol-DA in the States - that honor went to someone else and of course, the first patient was a JW.

Even though Ronny thought that he was the special chosen one to get Fluosol-DA into the US market, what is evident is that the FDA approval was already in place when Lapin got involved. And the other thing is that the FDA gave approval only to use Jehovah's Witness as a test group. Which means that there were was Jehovah's Witness representation at the FDA hearing leading up to the Feb 1979 approval. Somebody from the Watchtower would have had to attend those hearings.

All of those negotiations - the FDA approval, the contracts to supply test subjects to Green Cross in Japan...all of that kind of administration that would go along with that type of testing, would require an official backing for the Jehovah's Witnesses test group. And, the need to take control - first taking the power away from these somewhat self organized groups and then establishing the "official" hospital committees - was vital for the long term plan. And, the need for a tax-free place to park the funds that would change hands would become vital at this point. As well as the funds that the WT would expect to come rolling in from their investment into the biotech world.

The WT bloodless cult hit the big time in 1979 - they thought they had hit the jackpot.

Instead, Fluosol-DA 20 was found to be unsafe.

But that didn't stop them. A few needless deaths from Fluosol-DA 20 shouldn't matter. After all, they were going to die anyways, right?

48

"Basics of Blood Management" by Dr. Petra Seeber and Dr. Aryeh Shander - Inaccuracies and Myth

by OrphanCrow in

patient blood management arose out of bloodless medicine and alternatives to blood transfusions.

pbm has been accepted as the standard of care in australia and has been implemented into the health care systems of other countries such as canada.

a prominent promoter of pbm has been aryeh shander from englewood hospital in new jersey.

OrphanCrow

From Penton's book...picking up where he left off...:

But the whole matter caused some bad feelings, particularly among those elders who had given so much service to their brethren. The society's arguments over personal and family rights seemed facetious at best to many who were quite aware of the fact that a Jehovah's witness could be and would be disfellowshipped for voluntarily accepting a blood transfusion. Also, it seemed equally evident that unless Brooklyn itself thought of something first, it was not willing to accept new ideas. Then, finally, some of the elders affected negatively by the clampdown began to feel that the Governing Body cared little about human health or welfare, only the preaching work. Curiously, however, the Governing Body soon recognized the value of what it was to dub "Hospital Liaison Committees" and gave a green light for the re-establishment of those bodies.

Okay. This is a good place to stop and fill in some blanks and, at the same time, maybe answer Penton's curiosity. Why did the WT re-establish the hospital committees?

I am going to assume that this happened in 1979 - the date that Seeber/Shander gave in their textbook. That makes sense. Because it is time to look at another doctor that Seeber/Shander elevate to "pioneer" of the blood management movement - Ron Lapin.

It is Ron Lapin and his surgical practice that became an important cog in the HLC machine. His story fills in the gap between Brooklyn giving the thumbs down to the hospital committees in the mid 70s and their sudden reversal of heart in 1979.

After claiming that "bloodless programs" came about through the efforts of the HLC, The Seeber/Shander duo introduces Ron Lapin this way:

This laid the foundation for organized “bloodless programs.” One
of the hospitals with such a program was the Esperanza
Intercommunity Hospital in Yorba Linda, California,
where a high percentage of patients were Witnesses. Herk
Hutchins, an experienced surgeon and a Witness himself,
was known for his development of an iron - containing
formula for blood - building. Among his team was the
young surgeon Ron Lapin, who was later famed for his
pioneering work in the area of bloodless therapies. Critics
labeled him a quack. Nevertheless, he continued and was
later honored for opening one of the first organized
bloodless centers in the world, as well as for publishing
the first journal on this topic, and for his efforts to teach
his colleagues. During his career, he performed thousands
of bloodless surgeries.

So much to say. Where to start? The inaccuracies in Seeber/Shander's account are many. And bad.

Firstly, I would like to say that the blood management is really pulling from extremes. First, they give credit to one of the best heart surgeons the world has ever known - "Denton Cooley is our pioneer!". A surgeon at the top of his field. And then...they go and scrape the bottom of the barrel and pull up...Ronny Lapin. The bloodless butcher.

What a shame. To put Denton Cooley's achievements on the same page as Ron Lapin.

Time for a break...Ronny is a full installment all by himself. I will return (soon) with Herk's Hot-Line and Ronny's Hot-Knife...and what was the real reason that the WTS took the HLC under its wing in 1979.

48

"Basics of Blood Management" by Dr. Petra Seeber and Dr. Aryeh Shander - Inaccuracies and Myth

by OrphanCrow in

patient blood management arose out of bloodless medicine and alternatives to blood transfusions.

pbm has been accepted as the standard of care in australia and has been implemented into the health care systems of other countries such as canada.

a prominent promoter of pbm has been aryeh shander from englewood hospital in new jersey.

OrphanCrow

vidiot: I often wondered, "shouldn't the Biblical injunction itself be enough? Why go to all that extra effort?"
Now I know why they did it.

In part. Things get waaaay more complicated than that. We are just getting started.

For an idea of what challenges in the courts were taking place in the States in the years leading up to the early 60s, this is a webpage with a lot of court cases listed (I ignore the commentary). This page just deals with the cases concerning minors:

http://jwdivorces.bravehost.com/bloode.html

So there is the legal aspect. That's complicated. But you can see how a 'scientific' view would be beneficial in trying to force the courts to allow babies and children to die.

WonderofYou: I am curious about the coming info about HLC. Are there HLC's in each cirlce, each country, each continent or only one worldwide? Are their HLC conventions each year. How do they update? What is their job in contrast to the physicians, the anaesthelogoist? Only talking about what the physicians already knows anyway? Translating jargon to non-expert patient? Producting - excuse me - "guinea pigs"?

All good questions. It's complicated. This will take a long time. The HLC has evolved and changed forms - from its "humble beginnings" to its present day status is quite the journey.

The Seeber/Shander duo present the formation of the HLC in simplistic terms:

In the early 1960s,
representatives of Jehovah’ s Witnesses started visiting
physicians to explain the reasons why transfusions were
refused by the Witness population. They often offered
literature that dealt with techniques that were acceptable
to Witness patients, informing physicians of the availability
of so - called transfusion alternatives. In 1979 the governing
body of the Jehovah’ s Witnesses announced the
formation of Hospital Liaison Committees (see Chapter
20).

Chapter 20 is the one on Law and Ethics. And the one that defined the founding principle of blood management as "holy scripture". The current day HLC is described in more detail.

For now, I want to deal with that big gap - the one that leaps from the early '60s to 1979. It is very likely that Dr. Cooley's efforts resulted in networking among the Jehovah's Witnesses. That would account for the date that Seeber/Shander give as the 60s.

This practice of sharing information and networking moved across the border in the early 70s. James Penton, in his third edition of Apocalypse Delayed, speaks of the early "hospital committees" that were formed in Canada:

...In the early 70s a number of leading Canadian Witnesses (including Watch Tower officials at the Canadian branch) had organized "hospital committees" to act as chaplains for Witnesses in hospitals, nursing homes, and senior citizens' homes. Among other things, they were interested in developing contacts with doctors and hospitals so that Witness patients would not have to face the possibility of being forced to accept blood transfusions, a procedure which the society had long taught to be scripturally unacceptable to Jehovah's Witnesses. *

*note to the above:
*At the time of the establishment of the hospital committees, a number of large meetings were held in Toronto at which numerous prominent Canadian Witnesses were present. As a result of the "hospital work", three books containing photocopied articles from medical journals and the popular press were produced and bound at the society's Toronto branch. These were Jehovah's Witnesses - Alternatives to Blood Transfusions in Adults, Jehovah's Witnesses - Alternatives to Blood Transfusions in Minors, and Jehovah's Witnesses - Alternatives to Blood Transfusions. Most of the material in them was compiled by Alex Trost, a former Watchtower missionary and chemist from Hamilton, Ontario. Interestingly, in preparing these books, no attention was paid to copyright laws.

One of these volumes is now available for download:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4oXVPm4nrmfcGVHako0OVZuSUU/view
This volume contains a variety of material - an introduction by Dr. Dixon, the WT doctor, which contains a subtle threat that if doctors chose not to let JWs refuse blood for themselves and their children, that they will face court action. And an article by Dr. Kevorkian in support of child sacrifice.And a bunch of newspaper clippings and medical studies. And WT publications.

In a short time, the idea of establishing such committees spread from Toronto to a number of Canadian cities, and "hospital" or "blood committees", as they were called, were generally very popular with local Witnesses. For the first time since the 1920s, certain Witness elders began to comfort the dying, encourage the convalescing, and show regular attention to their brothers except when pressing them to proselytize or disciplining them for some infraction of organizational law.**

** Committees were established in a number of communities in both eastern and western Canada. I was personally involved in helping organize one of these hospital committees which for a time was very active and effective.

I can attest to how effective those hospital committees were.

They worked like a well oiled machine by 1974 in Western Canada. Well oiled and well prepared with full hospital cooperation. So well oiled that the JW hospital machine didn't even stop long enough to do what James Penton probably did - visit the patient. I could see Penton being a caring person and actually visiting the patient and give comfort to the mother.

The hospital committee in a certain city in Canada offered ZERO comfort. They offered NO spiritual guidance. None. Their focus was one thing and one thing only - get that baby in the operating room and don't use blood on him. And don't ever, ever, let that mother of the baby in the room when the forms are signed. And don't bother even looking at that baby. Or the mother of the baby. That is how well those hospital committees worked. At least, it worked that way in the hospital I delivered my baby at. Their "visiting' and "chaplaincy"?...eh...not so much. In fact, none.

The head offices of the society in Brooklyn soon put a stop to the hospital committees. ***
***A letter from the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society, Canadian Branch, 150 Bridgeland Ave., Toronto, Ontario, to William D. Johnson, 2726-25 Ave., Vancouver, BC, dated 4 October 1974 quotes extensively from a letter sent to the Canadian branch from the society's Brooklyn office. One quotation from that letter states: "We have not encouraged the elders in general or any committee of elders in a particular city to visit all the hospitals as if they are the representatives and spokesmen for all of Jehovah's Witnesses in that city. When it comes to medical treatment, they definitely are not".

Penton explains reasons given for Brooklyn not supporting the hospital committees and the reactions:

Some elders throughout Canada had complained about them for several reasons. For one thing, they had been developed by individual Witnesses in Toronto without express sanction from Brooklyn. Second, many of the elders involved on the committees began to become prominent with ordinary Witnesses, something which evoked both concern and some jealousy on the part of a number of their peers. And most important from the standpoint of those devoted primarily to the preaching work, if certain elders were spending so much time in "hospital work", it was asked how they could take the lead in field service.Surprisingly, the Governing Body, in abolishing the Canadian hospital committees, argued that they tended to violate private and family medical rights and could come between the individual patient and his doctor. In addition, Brooklyn held that there should be no special committee chosen by local bodies of elders for special tasks without the society's consent. If shepherding or chaplaincy work was to be done, it would have to be carried on by all elders on an unorganized basis.The society's Canadian branch seemed somewhat embarrassed, and in a few places the hospital committees continued to operate in spite of the Governing Body's dictum. ****
**** this was especially so in the Toronto area

*sorry...I hit the post button accidentally...more coming. Long quote from Penton..this could take a while