Posts by OrphanCrow

52

Russia to liquidate Jehovah's Witnesses' organization

by processor in

http://starconnectmedia.com/2017/01/19/russia-gets-go-ahead-to-liquidate-jehovahs-witnesses-organisation/.

OrphanCrow

kpop: I'm sorry but I must side with Russia on this because they see the JW for what it is- a cult, not a normal religion and for that Russia is 100% right. This has nothing to do with free speech and everything to do with stopping cults not stopping religion or free speech because cults are damaging to families and communities!

The blood transfusion ban is a critical point that Russia uses to define the JWs as "extremist":

http://forum18.org/archive.php?article_id=2197

Other prohibited aims are more specific, including "the encouragement of suicide or the refusal on religious grounds of medical assistance to persons in a life- or health-endangering condition" and "the motivation of citizens to refuse to fulfil their civic duties as established by law and to commit other illegal acts" (see F18News 4 July 2016 http://www.forum18.org/archive.php?article_id=2195).

These accusations have been made against Jehovah's Witness communities in suits to have them liquidated as "extremist" (alongside more specific allegations of distribution of "extremist" literature), based on their refusal of blood transfusions and conscientious objection to military service (see eg. F18News 24 May 2016 http://www.forum18.org/archive.php?article_id=2181).

I will look for the case in Russia (it is somewhere on the Forum18 website) where a couple had ate poisonous mushrooms and the only anitdote was a blood transfusion. The man accepted one but the JW wife refused. The congregation rallied around her intially, a JW lawyer got involved, made a stink about her getting a "bloodless" treatment, the hospital acquiesced to the WT lawyer's demands and agreed to transfer her to another hospital, but nobody from the congregation showed up to take the woman to the other hospital for treatment and they never heard from the lawyer again. The JW woman and the staff waited...and then at the very last, the JW woman accepted blood. It was too late. She died.

52

Russia to liquidate Jehovah's Witnesses' organization

by processor in

http://starconnectmedia.com/2017/01/19/russia-gets-go-ahead-to-liquidate-jehovahs-witnesses-organisation/.

OrphanCrow

Well, that didn't take long.

According to the ECHR, there were "6" judgments handed down in 2016 for cases that involved the Jehovah's Witnesses. *oops - edit - hang on...I just did a search for "jehovah" but haven't checked the case details...that may be a wrong number)

That is nowhere near the number you had stated, Fisherman:

WT claims around 223 -to be exact.

The ECHR claims ~~6. To be exact.~~

You had said:

Winning hundreds of cases in 2016 alone in the ECHR ! --the WT will also win this case

Can you back this number up with sources, Fisherman? Or is this just a rumor that floats around in WT land?

*edit to add - it looks like "jehovah" used for a search term showed up cases where it was a reference in another case. There actually is only one case that the Jehovah's Witnesses won - the one in Turkey

One ECHR case won in 2016.

Please correct me if I have made another mistake...

52

Russia to liquidate Jehovah's Witnesses' organization

by processor in

http://starconnectmedia.com/2017/01/19/russia-gets-go-ahead-to-liquidate-jehovahs-witnesses-organisation/.

OrphanCrow

Ah...Fisherman, I think I have misinterpreted initially what you had said. This is my mistake.

You had said:

Winning hundreds of cases in 2016 alone in the ECHR ! --the WT will also win this case; If Russia will follow the ruling and what they will do remains to be seen.

Because this was thread about Russia, I had taken the 223 number for Russia alone and instead, that number is for the cases heard in the European Court of Human Rights.

My figures and sources were about the cases in Russia alone.

I will read up on the ECHR.

*I need another coffee

52

Russia to liquidate Jehovah's Witnesses' organization

by processor in

http://starconnectmedia.com/2017/01/19/russia-gets-go-ahead-to-liquidate-jehovahs-witnesses-organisation/.

OrphanCrow

Fisherman: OC, are you saying that proof of WT claims (assuming the figure is correct and theirs) regarding the actual number of cases adjudicated by the ECHR in 2016 involving JW, discredits the credibility of your source?
(And by the the way, thanks for the link.)

You are welcome, Fisherman. Forum 18 is a good site for checking on the details of what is happening with various religious sects in Russia and it shows that the JW's claim to persecution is not an exclusive domain.

I am not sure exactly what you are getting at though, Fisherman. What I am saying is that what the WT claims and what external sources show differs. I regard WT "claims" as just that - claims only.

As far as the number of 223 cases in 2016 alone goes, the disparity between what Forum 18 reports and the number given by the WT is significant. They differ enough to throw the WT claim into doubt. It could be that the "223" number is referring to the total number of charges rather than cases and I would make a guess that it is over a longer period of time than just 2016.

The WT has a habit of presenting their "facts"/numbers in such a way that the number is correct but it has been presented in a way that conveys a different impression than what the number actually means.

52

Russia to liquidate Jehovah's Witnesses' organization

by processor in

http://starconnectmedia.com/2017/01/19/russia-gets-go-ahead-to-liquidate-jehovahs-witnesses-organisation/.

OrphanCrow

Fisherman: ...but I did not conclude that WT was lying

It is hard to wrap your head around, isn't it? So many years of buying into the WT's numbers game that it is difficult to examine the veracity of the WT's claims to numbers. A person's brain gets programmed to accept WT "facts" just because those "facts" are presented as a numerical value.

The WT lies about their history. They lie about their doctrine changes. They lie about protecting children. They lie about numbers. And they also lie about their legal record.

The Watchtower lies. Their lips are moving.

*to add (sorry - cross posting)

But what I also don't see is how your linked source disproves the number that I posted because you feel that your source "would have been all over it" or would have established the number as true.

I dunno...I guess it has been because I have been following Forum 18's news service for the past few years. They present credible evidence in their articles. I have no reason to disbelieve what they report. Forum 18 is about protecting freedom of worship - they highlight human rights abuses - if the WT had that many cases, it would bolster the Forum 18's position so of course they would have reported on those "missing" cases

58

Women's March on Washington

by azor in

jw
friends

my support is with the marchers in washington and around the country today.

i was raised through my formative years by my mother and sister while my father was out of the picture.

they gave me the compassion i have today.

OrphanCrow

FedUp: No, in my opinion these are just entitlement minded females who have nothing better to do with their time than whine.

Riiiiiight.....entitled to earn less than their male counterparts. So entitled, aren't they? Dumb women who think they are worth the same as men...huh?...stupid women and their demands for equitable pay, huh?

Dumb women should have stayed home in the kitchen where they belong and be grateful for their entitled positions, right? Who needs equitable pay?

Entitled. Right. Entitled to go out there and earn less than 80% of what they would get if they had been born with a penis.

401

So, the Womens March ... What Is It For?

by Simon in

it seems like mobilizing after the election, which seems pointless.

i keep hearing demands for equal rights but don't understand what rights they are missing exactly.. normally a march is to show the support (and potential votes) for a cause, but ... votes for what?

... and the election happened already.. is anyone else confused?

OrphanCrow

cofty: Really? I'm not convinced. I think the battle was largely won by previous generations of feminists.

Google "gender wage gap"

Also google "planned parenthood funding cuts"

221

Judge sanctions WTS - $4k per day penalty for not producing sex abuse documents

by Simon in

judge sanctions jehovah's witnesses.

imposes $4000-a-day penalty for not producing documents in sex-abuse case.

by dorian hargrove, june 24, 2016. a san diego superior court judge has ordered the church of jehovah's witnesses, also known as the watchtower bible and tract society of pennsylvania, to pay $4000 a day for every day that it fails to produce documents requested in a civil lawsuit brought by former parishioner, osbaldo padron, who claims a church elder sexually abused him when he was seven years old.. in a june 23 ruling, expected to be made final today, judge richard strauss admonished the church for willfully ignoring a court order to produce all documents associated with a 1997 body of elders letter that church leaders sent to parishes around the world in a quest to learn about sexual abuse of children by church leaders.. over the course of the past year, the watchtower society and its lawyers have fought hard to keep the letter confidential, claiming that turning over the documents would infringe on the privacy of those mentioned in the letter that were not associated with the case.. in march 2015, the church turned over a heavily redacted version of the letter.

OrphanCrow

RO:...it does not have the same due process of a court, no defense, cross examination of witnesses or evidence being presented by the defense

By presenting the statement as you have, Richard, you are deliberately trying to present the WTS as being placed at an unfair disadvantage by not being able to prepare a defense.

The WTS was given lots of opportunity to submit a defense and explanation for their position. The ARC website has submissions from the WTS where they attempted to present evidence for their side of the case.

52

Russia to liquidate Jehovah's Witnesses' organization

by processor in

http://starconnectmedia.com/2017/01/19/russia-gets-go-ahead-to-liquidate-jehovahs-witnesses-organisation/.

OrphanCrow

Fisherman: WT claims around 223 -to be exact.

Fisherman, I find that very, very difficult to believe.

According to Forum 18 News Service, since July 20 2016, 5 Jehovah's Witnesses (three cases), one Jehovah's Witness congregation and one Jehovah's Witness elder have been charged.

July 2016 was the date that new amendments were made to restrict missionary activity.

Between the amendment's coming into force on 20 July 2016 and 13 January 2017, there were 32 known prosecutions of: two Baptists, five Hare Krishna adherents (one prosecuted twice), five Jehovah's Witnesses (involved in three separate cases), one Buddhist, two Adventists, one Reformed Ukrainian Orthodox bishop, five Pentecostals, four other Protestants (one prosecuted twice), and one village elder. One Jehovah's Witness congregation, one Pentecostal church, the New Apostolic Church's Administrative Centre, and a Salvation Army branch, as well as a Jehovah's Witness elder, have been charged under Part 3.
Three cases were dropped before reaching court and two more were returned to police or prosecutors by judges and not resubmitted within the stipulated three-day period. Four trials are still underway as of 13 January. Of the 23 trials which have concluded, 18 resulted in conviction and five in acquittal.

So, for the last 6 months of 2016, there were, at most, five cases that involved the Jehovah's Witnesses (likely only 3 cases)

Even adding in the two previous years still doesn't raise the Jehovah's Witnesses cases to the level that the WTS claims:

2014:

According to available court records, 2014 saw 35 prosecutions of religious believers or their communities (out of nearly 1,000 prosecutions in total) – three under Article 20.2, Part 1, 27 under Part 2, and five under Part 5. These involved 24 Jehovah's Witnesses (including three local religious organisations), two Baptists, one Protestant, one Buddhist, and seven unidentified Christians (five in one case in Barnaul).

2015:

Prosecutions in 2015 involved: 83 Jehovah's Witnesses (including two communities), nine Baptists, eight members of the Society for Krishna Consciousness and one Hare Krishna community, six Falun Gong adherents, four members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (commonly known as Mormons - all part of the same case and all acquitted), three Muslims, three Protestants, one Buddhist, and four people of unknown belief affiliation.

So, according to a source that is not based in New York (Forum 18 is a Christian human rights org based in Norway), the WTS' numbers are way off.

I am not buying the WTS' claims that there were 223 cases in 2016 when Forum 18 claims that there were only THREE (or maybe 5?) cases that involved JWs during the last 6 months of 2016. That would mean that during the first six months of 2016 there were 220 additional cases. There wasn't.

If there were, indeed, 223 WT cases in 2016 alone, Forum 18 would have been all over it. They weren't. The WTS is lying.

18

Is it just me ? 2 threads debating page after page with one individual ?

by smiddy in

jw
friends

is it just me who doesnt see the point of this ?

from time to time we see some individual who takes up page after page arguing his or her point of view and it usually ends up with only 2 or 3 individuals who keep the talkfest going with a particular individual and nobodys getting anything out of it .. why bother ?

why get sucked in to such a pointless dialogue ?

OrphanCrow

lifeistoshort: To me this is just really important and if this guy succeeds in scary people from even trying it which really appears to be his goal it just makes me crazy. The subject of the pedophiles is so close to me that for someone to try to stop it like he is coming off as doing makes me lose it. I do agree that it is just a huge waste of time to debate them.

Yes, a thread like the one you mentioned is a significant thread and people like RO, once they decide to throw a wet blanket on it, can cause those who read his posts to have doubts and fall back into the Watchtower rationales and thought patterns. I, too, feel it is a huge waste of time to try to debate with Richard, however...I think the same way as Outlaw and others, it isn't RO we are arguing with - we are taking a stand against the Watchtower excuses for their vile behavior. RO is simply spouting all the nonsense he has been spoon fed by the WTS.

RO isn't RO per se - he represents all those dumb ass lawyers that the WTS has employed in slave labor to them. Arguing with RO is like getting a chance to debate with one of those suits that we saw sitting behind Angus Stewart at the ARC. RO represents those WT lawyers who made complete fools out of themselves.

Yes, Smiddy - RO's threads are annoying as hell - but I think they serve a purpose. For you, that purpose could be just learning to walk away when those kind of threads pop up. You don't have to read them and you don't have to participate. But it is perfectly fine to bitch about it too! Whatever kicks your turtle, Smiddy