OrphanCrow

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Posts by OrphanCrow

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  52

  Russia to liquidate Jehovah's Witnesses' organization

  by processor in

  1. watchtower
  2. scandals

  http://starconnectmedia.com/2017/01/19/russia-gets-go-ahead-to-liquidate-jehovahs-witnesses-organisation/.

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  OrphanCrow

  
  

  Even Stalin could not eliminate Jehovah's Witnesses

  JEHOVAH AND THE PROSECUTOR. HOW THE STATE COMBATS A SECT
  

  Representative of organization says the actions of government confirm prophecy by Jesus Christ

  by Anton Bykov

  Open Russia, 17 January 2017

  The Jehovah's Witnesses—one of the largest religious organizations in the world—may be banned in Russia because of the distribution of extremist literature. In several cities adherents of this organization have already found themselves outside the law. Law enforcement agencies have pursued Jehovists for several years, and after the adoption of the antiextremist law in the country several regional congregations have been liquidated and witnesses have been subjected to criminal prosecution. However in the past year the prosecutor general began a decisive attack on Jehovah's Witnesses, threatening to enter the organizations into the list of extremists. In that case, all of its branches will be closed and the Jehovists themselves, who number in Russia about 100,000, will be deprived of the possibility of openly professing their religious views.
  
  On Monday, 16 January, a Moscow city court declined to satisfy an appeal filed by Jehovah's Witnesses against the action of the prosecutor general's office. Thereby the decision of a lower instance, which earlier had recognized as legal the warning about the impermissibility of committing extremist activity issued by the prosecutor's office against the Administrative Center of Jehovah's Witnesses, remained in force.

  *read full article at link - good background information

  more here: National Jehovah's Witnesses center rebuffed in court
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  52

  Russia to liquidate Jehovah's Witnesses' organization

  by processor in

  1. watchtower
  2. scandals

  http://starconnectmedia.com/2017/01/19/russia-gets-go-ahead-to-liquidate-jehovahs-witnesses-organisation/.

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  OrphanCrow

  schnell: Is there a more credible source for this news than something like "star connect media"?

  From Forum18 May 2016:

  RUSSIA: Jehovah's Witnesses face possible liquidation

  *edit to add more info about the ECHR:

  http://www.forum18.org/archive.php?article_id=1724
  

  European Court of Human Rights
  While very slow, one possibility for redress against misapplication of the 2002 Extremism Law is the European Court of Human Rights in Strasbourg. In June 2010 Jehovah's Witnesses lodged a complaint with the European Court over Russia's upholding of the Rostov regional ban on 34 Jehovah's Witness titles and their Taganrog community (Application No. 32401/10). By March 2012, Jehovah's Witnesses had submitted a further 13 applications to the European Court centring on numerous "counter-extremism" actions by the Russian state, including raids, prosecutions and bans on literature. The Court has yet to declare these cases admissible, and if it does it will be some years before they are heard.
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  52

  Russia to liquidate Jehovah's Witnesses' organization

  by processor in

  1. watchtower
  2. scandals

  http://starconnectmedia.com/2017/01/19/russia-gets-go-ahead-to-liquidate-jehovahs-witnesses-organisation/.

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  OrphanCrow

  kpop: I'm sorry but I must side with Russia on this because they see the JW for what it is- a cult, not a normal religion and for that Russia is 100% right. This has nothing to do with free speech and everything to do with stopping cults not stopping religion or free speech because cults are damaging to families and communities!

  The blood transfusion ban is a critical point that Russia uses to define the JWs as "extremist":

  http://forum18.org/archive.php?article_id=2197
  

  Other prohibited aims are more specific, including "the encouragement of suicide or the refusal on religious grounds of medical assistance to persons in a life- or health-endangering condition" and "the motivation of citizens to refuse to fulfil their civic duties as established by law and to commit other illegal acts" (see F18News 4 July 2016 http://www.forum18.org/archive.php?article_id=2195).

  
  These accusations have been made against Jehovah's Witness communities in suits to have them liquidated as "extremist" (alongside more specific allegations of distribution of "extremist" literature), based on their refusal of blood transfusions and conscientious objection to military service (see eg. F18News 24 May 2016 http://www.forum18.org/archive.php?article_id=2181).

  I will look for the case in Russia (it is somewhere on the Forum18 website) where a couple had ate poisonous mushrooms and the only anitdote was a blood transfusion. The man accepted one but the JW wife refused. The congregation rallied around her intially, a JW lawyer got involved, made a stink about her getting a "bloodless" treatment, the hospital acquiesced to the WT lawyer's demands and agreed to transfer her to another hospital, but nobody from the congregation showed up to take the woman to the other hospital for treatment and they never heard from the lawyer again. The JW woman and the staff waited...and then at the very last, the JW woman accepted blood. It was too late. She died.
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  52

  Russia to liquidate Jehovah's Witnesses' organization

  by processor in

  1. watchtower
  2. scandals

  http://starconnectmedia.com/2017/01/19/russia-gets-go-ahead-to-liquidate-jehovahs-witnesses-organisation/.

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  OrphanCrow

  Well, that didn't take long.

  According to the ECHR, there were "6" judgments handed down in 2016 for cases that involved the Jehovah's Witnesses. *oops - edit - hang on...I just did a search for "jehovah" but haven't checked the case details...that may be a wrong number)

  That is nowhere near the number you had stated, Fisherman:

  WT claims around 223 -to be exact.

  The ECHR claims 6. To be exact.

  You had said:

  Winning hundreds of cases in 2016 alone in the ECHR ! --the WT will also win this case

  Can you back this number up with sources, Fisherman? Or is this just a rumor that floats around in WT land?
  

  *edit to add - it looks like "jehovah" used for a search term showed up cases where it was a reference in another case. There actually is only one case that the Jehovah's Witnesses won - the one in Turkey

  One ECHR case won in 2016.

  Please correct me if I have made another mistake...
  
  
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  52

  Russia to liquidate Jehovah's Witnesses' organization

  by processor in

  1. watchtower
  2. scandals

  http://starconnectmedia.com/2017/01/19/russia-gets-go-ahead-to-liquidate-jehovahs-witnesses-organisation/.

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  OrphanCrow

  Ah...Fisherman, I think I have misinterpreted initially what you had said. This is my mistake.

  You had said:

  Winning hundreds of cases in 2016 alone in the ECHR ! --the WT will also win this case; If Russia will follow the ruling and what they will do remains to be seen.

  Because this was thread about Russia, I had taken the 223 number for Russia alone and instead, that number is for the cases heard in the European Court of Human Rights.

  My figures and sources were about the cases in Russia alone.

  I will read up on the ECHR.

  *I need another coffee
  
  
  
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  52

  Russia to liquidate Jehovah's Witnesses' organization

  by processor in

  1. watchtower
  2. scandals

  http://starconnectmedia.com/2017/01/19/russia-gets-go-ahead-to-liquidate-jehovahs-witnesses-organisation/.

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  OrphanCrow

  Fisherman: OC, are you saying that proof of WT claims (assuming the figure is correct and theirs) regarding the actual number of cases adjudicated by the ECHR in 2016 involving JW, discredits the credibility of your source?
  (And by the the way, thanks for the link.)

  You are welcome, Fisherman. Forum 18 is a good site for checking on the details of what is happening with various religious sects in Russia and it shows that the JW's claim to persecution is not an exclusive domain.

  I am not sure exactly what you are getting at though, Fisherman. What I am saying is that what the WT claims and what external sources show differs. I regard WT "claims" as just that - claims only.

  As far as the number of 223 cases in 2016 alone goes, the disparity between what Forum 18 reports and the number given by the WT is significant. They differ enough to throw the WT claim into doubt. It could be that the "223" number is referring to the total number of charges rather than cases and I would make a guess that it is over a longer period of time than just 2016.

  The WT has a habit of presenting their "facts"/numbers in such a way that the number is correct but it has been presented in a way that conveys a different impression than what the number actually means.
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  52

  Russia to liquidate Jehovah's Witnesses' organization

  by processor in

  1. watchtower
  2. scandals

  http://starconnectmedia.com/2017/01/19/russia-gets-go-ahead-to-liquidate-jehovahs-witnesses-organisation/.

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  OrphanCrow

  Fisherman: ...but I did not conclude that WT was lying

  It is hard to wrap your head around, isn't it? So many years of buying into the WT's numbers game that it is difficult to examine the veracity of the WT's claims to numbers. A person's brain gets programmed to accept WT "facts" just because those "facts" are presented as a numerical value.

  The WT lies about their history. They lie about their doctrine changes. They lie about protecting children. They lie about numbers. And they also lie about their legal record.

  The Watchtower lies. Their lips are moving.

  *to add (sorry - cross posting)

  But what I also don't see is how your linked source disproves the number that I posted because you feel that your source "would have been all over it" or would have established the number as true.

  I dunno...I guess it has been because I have been following Forum 18's news service for the past few years. They present credible evidence in their articles. I have no reason to disbelieve what they report. Forum 18 is about protecting freedom of worship - they highlight human rights abuses - if the WT had that many cases, it would bolster the Forum 18's position so of course they would have reported on those "missing" cases
  
  
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  58

  Women's March on Washington

  by azor in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  my support is with the marchers in washington and around the country today.

  i was raised through my formative years by my mother and sister while my father was out of the picture.

  they gave me the compassion i have today.

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  OrphanCrow

  FedUp: No, in my opinion these are just entitlement minded females who have nothing better to do with their time than whine.

  Riiiiiight.....entitled to earn less than their male counterparts. So entitled, aren't they? Dumb women who think they are worth the same as men...huh?...stupid women and their demands for equitable pay, huh?

  Dumb women should have stayed home in the kitchen where they belong and be grateful for their entitled positions, right? Who needs equitable pay?

  Entitled. Right. Entitled to go out there and earn less than 80% of what they would get if they had been born with a penis.
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  401

  So, the Womens March ... What Is It For?

  by Simon in

  1. social
  2. current

  it seems like mobilizing after the election, which seems pointless.

  i keep hearing demands for equal rights but don't understand what rights they are missing exactly.. normally a march is to show the support (and potential votes) for a cause, but ... votes for what?

  ... and the election happened already.. is anyone else confused?

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  OrphanCrow

  cofty: Really? I'm not convinced. I think the battle was largely won by previous generations of feminists.

  Google "gender wage gap"

  Also google "planned parenthood funding cuts"
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  221

  Judge sanctions WTS - $4k per day penalty for not producing sex abuse documents

  by Simon in

  1. watchtower
  2. scandals

  judge sanctions jehovah's witnesses.

  imposes $4000-a-day penalty for not producing documents in sex-abuse case.

  by dorian hargrove, june 24, 2016. a san diego superior court judge has ordered the church of jehovah's witnesses, also known as the watchtower bible and tract society of pennsylvania, to pay $4000 a day for every day that it fails to produce documents requested in a civil lawsuit brought by former parishioner, osbaldo padron, who claims a church elder sexually abused him when he was seven years old.. in a june 23 ruling, expected to be made final today, judge richard strauss admonished the church for willfully ignoring a court order to produce all documents associated with a 1997 body of elders letter that church leaders sent to parishes around the world in a quest to learn about sexual abuse of children by church leaders.. over the course of the past year, the watchtower society and its lawyers have fought hard to keep the letter confidential, claiming that turning over the documents would infringe on the privacy of those mentioned in the letter that were not associated with the case.. in march 2015, the church turned over a heavily redacted version of the letter.

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  OrphanCrow

  RO:...it does not have the same due process of a court, no defense, cross examination of witnesses or evidence being presented by the defense

  By presenting the statement as you have, Richard, you are deliberately trying to present the WTS as being placed at an unfair disadvantage by not being able to prepare a defense.

  The WTS was given lots of opportunity to submit a defense and explanation for their position. The ARC website has submissions from the WTS where they attempted to present evidence for their side of the case.